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IMVU’s Position On The Confederate Flag - by Brett Durrett
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BraydenFinn wrote:
The Confederate Flag's original meaning has never changed. It's always stood for racism and hate. Maybe you people who live in the South want to think it hasn't changed, but with hate groups taking it up as their banner, it has always retained its terrible history. You can't erase the WHY it was created.
Thompson, who designed the square part of the original flag, stated it in fact, then it was adopted, changed by Tennessee into a rectangle and then flown fully or in part of many other Southern state flags. It was conceived in racism and hate. Whether people accept that or white wash it, the fact remains.


We have all acknowledged it's original meaning thanks. The current point I and others are trying to make is its evolved meaning for many. Not all of us are hung up on the past, in fact most Southerners are not. Alas, only those filled with hate get media coverage though, so I can see where some people would think all those who love the Rebel flag are racists. Shame such a small percentage of Southerners has so much influence on how others perceive Southerners thanks to media.

Maybe non-Southerners should stop watching the news and see what southern life and pride is about first hand. We are aware of history, but we are also aware of what we have learned and how we have changed since the Civil war and the fact that the majority of us are not racist hate mongers. THAT is what we are proud of. Plain and simple.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NikkiHart01 wrote:
BraydenFinn wrote:
The Confederate Flag's original meaning has never changed. It's always stood for racism and hate. Maybe you people who live in the South want to think it hasn't changed, but with hate groups taking it up as their banner, it has always retained its terrible history. You can't erase the WHY it was created.
Thompson, who designed the square part of the original flag, stated it in fact, then it was adopted, changed by Tennessee into a rectangle and then flown fully or in part of many other Southern state flags. It was conceived in racism and hate. Whether people accept that or white wash it, the fact remains.


We have all acknowledged it's original meaning thanks. The current point I and others are trying to make is its evolved meaning for many. Not all of us are hung up on the past, in fact most Southerners are not. Alas, only those filled with hate get media coverage though, so I can see where some people would think all those who love the Rebel flag are racists. Shame such a small percentage of Southerners has so much influence on how others perceive Southerners thanks to media.


You know, Nikki, I read an article a couple minutes ago how so many Southerners feel the flag is a symbol of pride. Maybe if I was born and lived in the South, I'd feel the same. Maybe my comments are reflected by my upbringing, just like yours.

I respect your opinion, tho.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People can certainly change and grow.

But symbols do not grow - they can take on different meaning to different people - and when the majority of people recognize a symbol for having any specific meaning, then the majority view is what is accepted in a given society.

A perfect example is the swastika - originally a religious icon, adopted and altered only slightly by a fascist group that then proceeded to wage a war and conquer other countries. A world war was the result and the abuses of that group that proudly carried that symbol forever tainted that image to the point that most of the world recognizes that symbol as a symbol of fascism, hate, and atrocity. The original meaning of the swastika WAS a good meaning, that has been largely destroyed and replaced by a sick evil.

On a smaller scale, within only ONE nation, the Confederate flag was created to symbolize an ideology that supported the human rights abuses of racism and slavery, and also supported sedition against the government of the nation - the result was a war between the American states, a horrific war that killed thousands and thousands of people. The reason for that war, the reason for that symbol, are realities that simply overwhelm revisionist desires to evolve the Confederate flag to mean some thing better than it was meant to be. It was literally MEANT to stand for racism, slavery and sedition, it has no redeeming value to return to.
Instead of a good symbol made filthy, it is a filthy symbol being painted over to make it seem cleaner. Painting it in a pretty shade is not enough to remove its history.

i honestly think that what is GOOD about the south USA should be celebrated and felt proud about - but it needs its own symbol, one that is NOT born out of sick evil.

Maybe even one that is not intentionally creating an US versus THEM way of thinking about the north and south of USA, ne?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BraydenFinn wrote:
NikkiHart01 wrote:
BraydenFinn wrote:
The Confederate Flag's original meaning has never changed. It's always stood for racism and hate. Maybe you people who live in the South want to think it hasn't changed, but with hate groups taking it up as their banner, it has always retained its terrible history. You can't erase the WHY it was created.
Thompson, who designed the square part of the original flag, stated it in fact, then it was adopted, changed by Tennessee into a rectangle and then flown fully or in part of many other Southern state flags. It was conceived in racism and hate. Whether people accept that or white wash it, the fact remains.


We have all acknowledged it's original meaning thanks. The current point I and others are trying to make is its evolved meaning for many. Not all of us are hung up on the past, in fact most Southerners are not. Alas, only those filled with hate get media coverage though, so I can see where some people would think all those who love the Rebel flag are racists. Shame such a small percentage of Southerners has so much influence on how others perceive Southerners thanks to media.


You know, Nikki, I read an article a couple minutes ago how so many Southerners feel the flag is a symbol of pride. Maybe if I was born and lived in the South, I'd feel the same. Maybe my comments are reflected by my upbringing, just like yours.

I respect your opinion, tho.


News flash...I am originally a born and breed Yankee (sorry to burst your bubble but I was born and raised in New Jersey). I have never seen the Rebel flag as others do because it represents a past that is no longer the norm. Even as a Yankee I felt that way. Since living in the South, I have become proud to be called a Southerner because I know and have experienced Southern heritage and pride for myself. I am not so prejudiced against a symbol that I cannot accept that its meaning or those who use it have not changed since the days of the civil war.

So while we both respect one another's opinions, seems to me only one of us is willing to listen to the other side of the argument on this topic and defend the rights of all groups and not just those groups that it is PC to defend.

edited to add: I can only speak for myself, but I was raised to have an open mind. Perhaps that is the difference. Honestly, idk but what I do know is this is a subject that can be debated for a lifetime with nothing changing.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikanojo wrote:
People can certainly change and grow.

But symbols do not grow - they can take on different meaning to different people - and when the majority of people recognize a symbol for having any specific meaning, then the majority view is what is accepted in a given society.

A perfect example is the swastika - originally a religious icon, adopted and altered only slightly by a fascist group that then proceeded to wage a war and conquer other countries. A world war was the result and the abuses of that group that proudly carried that symbol forever tainted that image to the point that most of the world recognizes that symbol as a symbol of fascism, hate, and atrocity. The original meaning of the swastika WAS a good meaning, that has been largely destroyed and replaced by a sick evil.

On a smaller scale, within only ONE nation, the Confederate flag was created to symbolize an ideology that supported the human rights abuses of racism and slavery, and also supported sedition against the government of the nation - the result was a war between the American states, a horrific war that killed thousands and thousands of people. The reason for that war, the reason for that symbol, are realities that simply overwhelm revisionist desires to evolve the Confederate flag to mean some thing better than it was meant to be. It was literally MEANT to stand for racism, slavery and sedition, it has no redeeming value to return to.
Instead of a good symbol made filthy, it is a filthy symbol being painted over to make it seem cleaner. Painting it in a pretty shade is not enough to remove its history.

i honestly think that what is GOOD about the south USA should be celebrated and felt proud about - but it needs its own symbol, one that is NOT born out of sick evil.

Maybe even one that is not intentionally creating an US versus THEM way of thinking about the north and south of USA, ne?


Oh hell lets just get rid of all state flags too and only fly the USA flag because hey, an individual state flag can cause a divide as well. Southern state flags represent one way of life...northern state flags another. Rolling Eyes

/sarcasm

I'm done. Not coming back to read. Cannot handle the PC stuff without getting involved so best to leave this alone. This is one divide that will never be changed.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikanojo wrote:
...when the white plantation owners owned black people and were rich from abusing them and forcing them into labor - tobacco, cotton, and the slave trade were the basis of the economy then -a wonderful life i guess for white land owning bigots.


no talk about the black slave owners? okay.....


-------------------------

i posted this one month ago, unfortunate nobody pay attention to it because like i say is much bigger than just taking Confederate Flag away....people choosing to ignore it though.

shynoah wrote:
Politically Correct Dukes of Hazzard....

this had me laughing Laughing

now being serious imvu is heading this direction of political correctness, only matter of time before the snowball effect starts rolling out of control. take something away from one group of people to make happy another group? not smart imvu especially because you don't learn about the Confederate flag before you take it away.

no matter anyone is for or against the decision i don't care, point is imvu followed blind the media without research something for their OWN knowledge. to me that is not good practice for any business. how does this not bother everyone? who cares about sides imvu are only followers, is that a message good to send to people? what if next is something any of you care for? take pride in? have attachment to for any reason? what if is something of meaning to you and imvu follows media and poof what you care about is now gone? would this not bother a person? it doesn't matter what it is, the point imvu to take things away only because other say it is wrong? i can't respect a company like that.

forget it is Confederate flag, think of something that truly has meaning for you please and think if imvu took it away because others say it is not right to have. this is so much more than a flag this is a thing much bigger. i hope imvu does not take something you all care for but only good to come of it maybe you would understand. still i hope this does not happen for any of you.

before this happened no one i know had problems with the flag, i did not see any controversy in forum or anywhere on this site. now media says no it is racist and imvu follows, this has divided many people here and that is a benefit to nobody. i feel shame for imvu in what they did and i feel is only will get worse from here.

i hear now people talk of peanut butter and jelly sandwich as being racist? some schools ban them? i hear also nude bras worn by women are consider racist? not something i have to worry for but still i think is stupid to even think it as racism. somwhere (Oklahoma?) a Ten Commandments statue will forced to come down because it offends? i am agnostic but i am not offended by this or by "In God We Trust". this is the snowball i mention earlier. where will this end? this is NOT just about Confederate flag anymore this is about that snowball effect. imvu will ride that media train when more and more things taken away deemed racist, do you all really in heart believe this to be okay?

Confused



this pointless back and forth argument, went through this in Off Topic forum and still many wish to stay blind. take away a pixel flag i don't give a *** anymore because nobody will see bigger picture happening at imvu. only good to come of this is my eyes open to how imvu runs business but others choose to stay blind that is a choice they make. i'm finished trying to defend a thing that does not need defending. people can keep to what they think and they have this right. same for me is my right to keep flying and display my Confederate Flags here at home with very much pride. none of this crap in forum changes my real life.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NikkiHart01 wrote:
Ouijah wrote:
oOKabbyOo wrote:
Vester Flanagan (a gay black man) shoots a straight white woman on live television.

Lo and behold a Gay-Pride rainbow flag was found in his apartment.

Well, well, well...

Is IMVU now going to ban the gay-pride rainbow flag too?

I mean just to be consistent and prove that you don't have an ulterior motive for banning the Confederate Flag you must ban Flanagan's gay-pride flag from IMVU as well.

This was an obvious hate crime murder by definition and fits the same hate crime definition with Roof.

So what's it gonna be IMVU? Do you continue to show your obvious Yankee prejudice against Southern American Heritage or do you get consistent and ban the gay-pride rainbow flag from IMVU?

Its time for this insanity to stop.

Put the Confederate Flag back in the shop or ban the gay-pride flag.

Or expose yourself for supporting a prejudice Yankee agenda against Southern American Heritage that has nothing to do with a hate crime.


The shooting did not make the flag troublesome; it started a discussion about it's existence.

When the shooting occurred all flags but the confederate flag were brought down to half mass. It is because it could not be brought down. This sparked debate on if it should be represented by the government due to its history of being the logo for "pro slavery". After discussions were taken place it was removed. Later on, many companies followed not wanting to be "those *** with the racist flag".

The LGBT+/MOGAI flag was not stitched together and flown to "protect their property"; which was other human beings. It was to empower a group of people who were shamed, medically treated as ill, targeted for crimes, were given less rights under the law and overall oppressed and still are today.

If a shooter was wearing a blue shirt while he committed mass murder; would that ban all blue shirts? No. The creation and the purpose of it is harmless; the history of the flag was created to fight for something we now find unacceptable and infringes on our Human Rights and that is slavery. It is also seen as racist due to the fact slavery targeted people of colour.


From day one, many Christians have found the Gay Pride flag offensive because it stands for something Christians believe is a sin against God (and they are not all crazy fundamentalists or religious zealots...though a few are). Then a gay man who owns such a flag shoots straight people and his manifesto states his dislike of straight people. BUT that is OK. We can keep the Gay Pride flag because the LGBT community meant it as a symbol of love right?? Even though it offends many and was owned by someone who was prejudiced against non-gays??

Here's is something to think about.....

The argument going is that the Confederate flag was always a symbol of hate, and oppression so ban it. The LGBT flag was never a symbol of hate so keep it.

1. The Confederate flag has evolved to mean many things to many people, none of which have anything to do with racism. Only a few still use it as a racist symbol and commit murder against African Americans due to prejudice.

2. The LGBT flag was never meant as a hate symbol, but many religious persons find it offensive. Only a few of the LGBT are prejudiced against straight people and commit murder born of prejudice.

Both flags hold different meanings for different people, both flags can be found offensive by a group of people. So why is one group more important than others?? Rolling Eyes

For the record, I have nothing against the LGBT or gay/lesbian community. I am not prejudiced or racist. I just believe what is good for one group of citizens should go for all groups. Get rid of one symbol because it offends, then get rid of all the symbols (regardless of original meaning) that offends any group of citizens.

(and please do not sell me the "people died under the Confederate flag" crap....many more have died under the US flag...both soldiers and innocents civilians. The civil war reflects a mind set of those times, just as any other war, present or past, reflects the mind set at the time. Whether that mind set is correct or not is not the main issue, though some would like us all to believe it is).


People who are offended by the LGBT+ Flag are not so because of natural disposition. You are not naturally a born christian, it is either by choice or nurture. You are not born with Christianity in your blood, which makes you feel offended by a flag. Besides, that flag represents a harmless way of life. Someone being Gay does not infringe on human rights; owning a slave does.

People who are offended by the confederate flag are either because they believe in basic human rights, like not owning people. Or come from a line of ancestors where they were owned. You naturally can have a dislike for a flag because it offends you over something you can not control; you skin color or your herratige. and also like I said, the LGBT+ flag was brought into play because a group of people were opressed, not oppressors getting oppressed because something they did or do is or was wrong.

1) It still kinda makes it a bad symbol; some people still despise it's existence because no matter how you sugar coat it, it was created in order to defend "property" which just so happened to be other human beings. You can't change it's history because it means something a tad bit different to you. It is like people waking in with the nazi swastika and going "well for me it means a strong economy" - that flag was still flown and created to support a man who destroyed people just because they were a bit different. Now, I am in nooo way comparing the Confederate Flag's Meaning to the Swastika; Hitler was on some next level evil but you get the circumstance. it means one thing to you, it means another bad thing to someone else and it has history since conception to prove it (actually the swastika is harder to compare because it was technically adopted by Hitler durring his Campaign; that is why I specified Nazi Swastika)

2) Like said above, the LGBT flag was not only created in good will, but it and the people who support it are not offensive because of natural disposition. You are not naturally entitled to be offended, it was your choice to dislike those life choices. And the fact someone committed a crime With the Confederate Flag on it just shone the spotlight on it, didn't actually remove the flag just on this event alone. So should the LGBT+ flag be removed on crime alone?

One group dislikes a flag because when it was stitched together to defend something that we now find VERY morally wrong and that is Slavery.
The other was stitched together to unite a group of people who have been oppressed (not oppressors, though some commit crime you can't tag a whole group for it like you would any other) socially, religiously and physically throughout history. It just so happens to offend a group of people because a book they decided to adopt as their way of life says no.

Their origins are very different from another. That is what makes these flags very distinguished. I can wear a blue shirt and kill a bunch of people because they wear red shirts, I don't see a future where blue shirts are banned. because the history of the blue shirt was not malicious.

Though I understand many today do not use the confederate flag in a malicious way, they must understand that this is how people interpenetrate it.

Anyways, this is technically off topic. This is not about if the flag is good or bad, it is about if or if it should not remain on IMVU...

Like i said in my previous post all the way on Page 2


Ouijah wrote:
I can walk around in real life with a shirt that says offensive things, (the matter of if I should is different) but due to the fact IMVU is now paying you, and supporting you to sell these products they really don't want to be known as those guys. You can't get a product for IMVU without IMVU being represented. Like Walmart has several brands within their stores (lets say those are their equivalent of creators). Sure, Walmart does not make or own all these brands exactly; but they sell them regardless. You are using IMVU like a super store to sell your brand, or your products. They are at the end of the day responsible for what you sell, regardless who made it.


IMVU does not want to represent the confederate flag and it is it's right to do so.
Just like how Christians refuse to support the LGBT+ Flag (and the people behind it) ... it is their right to do so, as long as it does not infringe on basic human rights, or becomes aggressive it is their right to do so.

Let us please not get this one removed due to baiting and so forth, and keep the conversation on topic, about Brett and his decisions.

//EDITED: Syntax Error.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="shynoah"][quote="Mikanojo"]...when the white plantation owners owned black people and were rich from abusing them and forcing them into labor - tobacco, cotton, and the slave trade were the basis of the economy then -a wonderful life i guess for white land owning bigots.[/quote]

no talk about the black slave owners? okay.....


-------------------------

i posted this one month ago, unfortunate nobody pay attention to it because like i say is much bigger than just taking Confederate Flag away....people choosing to ignore it though.

[quote="shynoah"][url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA-OvBAlSrc]Politically Correct Dukes of Hazzard....[/url]

this had me laughing :lol:

now being serious imvu is heading this direction of political correctness, only matter of time before the snowball effect starts rolling out of control. take something away from one group of people to make happy another group? not smart imvu especially because you don't learn about the Confederate flag before you take it away.

no matter anyone is for or against the decision i don't care, point is imvu followed blind the media without research something for their OWN knowledge. to me that is not good practice for any business. how does this not bother everyone? who cares about sides imvu are only followers, is that a message good to send to people? what if next is something any of you care for? take pride in? have attachment to for any reason? what if is something of meaning to you and imvu follows media and poof what you care about is now gone? would this not bother a person? it doesn't matter what it is, the point imvu to take things away only because other say it is wrong? i can't respect a company like that.

forget it is Confederate flag, think of something that truly has meaning for you please and think if imvu took it away because others say it is not right to have. this is so much more than a flag this is a thing much bigger. i hope imvu does not take something you all care for but only good to come of it maybe you would understand. still i hope this does not happen for any of you.

before this happened no one i know had problems with the flag, i did not see any controversy in forum or anywhere on this site. now media says no it is racist and imvu follows, this has divided many people here and that is a benefit to nobody. i feel shame for imvu in what they did and i feel is only will get worse from here.

i hear now people talk of peanut butter and jelly sandwich as being racist? some schools ban them? i hear also nude bras worn by women are consider racist? not something i have to worry for but still i think is stupid to even think it as racism. somwhere (Oklahoma?) a Ten Commandments statue will forced to come down because it offends? i am agnostic but i am not offended by this or by "In God We Trust". this is the snowball i mention earlier. where will this end? this is NOT just about Confederate flag anymore this is about that snowball effect. imvu will ride that media train when more and more things taken away deemed racist, do you all really in heart believe this to be okay?

:?[/quote]


this pointless back and forth argument, went through this in Off Topic forum and still many wish to stay blind. take away a pixel flag i don't give a *** anymore because nobody will see bigger picture happening at imvu. only good to come of this is my eyes open to how imvu runs business but others choose to stay blind that is a choice they make. i'm finished trying to defend a thing that does not need defending. people can keep to what they think and they have this right. same for me is my right to keep flying and display my Confederate Flags here at home with very much pride. none of this crap in forum changes my real life.[/quote]

they dont wanna accept that things change unless is to there benefit, they ignore what is being said to them, they complain about hate an look how they r treating us, i say to you dont give up its what they want.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMVU made the right choice about the Confederate flag, even though it has upset the people here who grew up being told that the Confederate flag is a symbol of heritage and pride.

To the two people who wanted to know why i did not mention black people who also owned slaves, it is because i was writing about the facade that revisionists have created about the flag - how people have been misled.

The facade that revisionists have created about the Confederate flag is a white happy land in the antebellum south. It tries to largely overlook the slavery and focus instead on how happy the WHITE people were - and that is what i was writing about, that facade, of fancy party gowns and homemade lemonade and white pillared ancestral homes of large white families - black people are only present in the background as smiling servants - they made the lemonade and they helped the women get into those massive skirts - no mention of slavery at all because revisionists want every one to see the south as near Utopian lifestyle in an idyllic time, until the Yankees from the north brought war and ruined it all - The revisionists want every one to see the history of the south as Gone With The Wind, and paint the Yankees as evil.

That facade is part of the revision, the effort to find an excuse to use the Confederate flag as a pride symbol.

But that facade is not enough to make the reality of the antebellum south go away.

Hate groups that are STILL ACTIVE TODAY are still using that flag as the symbol it always did stand for. And racists like Dylann Roof are reminders of the reality the revisionists are trying to hide.

When he murdered those people in the church because they were black and tried to start an open bloody war fought about race, it bought national attention to the reality of that flag, what it originally stood for and still stands for - and THAT is why companies that claim to serve the public
want to separate their business from the Confederate flag - because the flag has ALWAYS been a hate symbol, a symbol of racism, of sedition, and a symbol of human rights abuse.

So yes IMVU made the right choice - for IMVU.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is ashame that a few ppl have to ruin things for the rest of us law abiding ppl....an i love how ppl r trying to sell us their ...logic...., nobody has asked them to change their opinions, we just wanna be able to keep ours, not to much to ask really.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

songzplz wrote:
is ashame that a few ppl have to ruin things for the rest of us law abiding ppl....an i love how ppl r trying to sell us their ...logic...., nobody has asked them to change their opinions, we just wanna be able to keep ours, not to much to ask really.


You are absolutely welcome to your opinions.
Your opinions, and mine, really only matter to you and to me, as individuals.

But a corporation open to the public needs to be guided by reality as much as possible, rather than simply making decisions on any one person's personal opinion.

It is not the opinions about the Confederate flag that led so many corporations and now schools to ban it as a hate symbol - it is the reality of the flag, the physical origin and history of the flag, that has ultimately compelled businesses to disallow it.

You can still feel about it any way that you wish.
And i can feel about it any way that i wish.
And depending on where you are and when,
public and private opinions about the flag may be completely different...

But the reality of that flag is not really changed.

Writing only for me, i am not trying to sell any thing to any one here.
Regarding that flag, you can have the history about it absolutely for free.
The people trying to sell you some thing are the revisionists
who want to deny the reality of that flag in favor of a fabricated nostalgia,
a faux heritage to replace the sedition, racism and hate that flag was really made to represent.

They literally want to sell you that flag.
So they repackaged it in pretty wrapping.
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