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IMVU’s Position On The Confederate Flag - by Brett Durrett
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Mikanojo VIP Club Member 18+ Age Verified

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify about some symbols...

i absolutely DO agree that there are symbols allowed in the IMVU catalog that should never have been allowed there.

The most common usage you will find for the iron cross in IMVU is by neo-fascists who had their swastikas taken away from them.

The pentagram / pentacle with one point up is a symbol originally used on coins. It was accepted as a symbol of riches, good fortune, and used on Tarot cards for that reason - which then associated it with divination / witchcraft. It is often used by Wiccans - the religion of sorts made up of concepts chosen from various pagan religions of the past with a bit of Anton LaVey and Aliester Crowley mixed in -the Satanic law of Thelema reads as:

Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law...

The Wiccan rede is most often written as:

An it harm none, do what thou wilt.

Upside down, the pentacle / pentagram is considered Satanic by people who do not know the origin of it - with two star points up many people consider it to be symbolizing the horns of Baphomet, even though a baphomet actually refers to any pagan idol, not a demon or another name for Satan exactly, and the Satanics sort of co-opted it as a demon / deity much later.

The upside-down cross actually first appeared as the cross of saint Peter, who was supposedly crucified upside down. It is also some times called the Peterine cross. But MUCH more recently, people who i guess are unaware of the story of saint Peter, have used the upside down cross as yet another devil sign.

But even knowing all of this - If any genuine religious icon is going to be respected then all genuine religious icons need to be respected.

The Cross, the Torii, the Pentacle, the Star of David, the Khanda, the Buddha, The Tao, the Om or Aum, some people may argue for the Star and Crescent, but in Islam it is not truly a holy symbol.

The iron cross is NOT really a holy cross but a political symbol, just as the swastika was for the National Socialist German Workers' Party. The swastika BEGAN as a holy symbol, but there is no question that it has been twisted into a symbol of hate. It is popular among hate groups and is forever made filthy because of it.

There are a few other symbols i will not write much about here in this GA thread. They are false symbols that are popular in IMVU simply because IMVU caters to those particular fetishes / disorders. A few are completely imaginary symbols made as part of a fictional sexist book series, and one is a co-opted crest that once had MUCH better meaning than it has come to represent now. Those symbols are good examples of IMVU double standards - IMVU does not allow people to write about their interest in those acts and those groups on their profile cards, BUT they DO allow those symbols to be displayed as badges, only taking them away if they have too much information written with them that would appear when you could still click on badges. Just adding that one symbol to even a GA product will instantly make that product AP due to sexual theme. As for the others, those made up ones from the book series - IMVU seems to be largely ignorant of them.

All i have to say about them is that officially IMVU allows that content...

And i think i may have the largest blocked list in IMVU history because i block any one who displays those badges.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikanojo wrote:
Just to clarify about some symbols...

i absolutely DO agree that there are symbols allowed in the IMVU catalog that should never have been allowed there.

The most common usage you will find for the iron cross in IMVU is by neo-fascists who had their swastikas taken away from them.

The pentagram / pentacle with one point up is a symbol originally used on coins. It was accepted as a symbol of riches, good fortune, and used on Tarot cards for that reason - which then associated it with divination / witchcraft. It is often used by Wiccans - the religion of sorts made up of concepts chosen from various pagan religions of the past with a bit of Anton LaVey and Aliester Crowley mixed in -the Satanic law of Thelema reads as:

Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law...

The Wiccan rede is most often written as:

An it harm none, do what thou wilt.

Upside down, the pentacle / pentagram is considered Satanic by people who do not know the origin of it - with two star points up many people consider it to be symbolizing the horns of Baphomet, even though a baphomet actually refers to any pagan idol, not a demon or another name for Satan exactly, and the Satanics sort of co-opted it as a demon / deity much later.

The upside-down cross actually first appeared as the cross of saint Peter, who was supposedly crucified upside down. It is also some times called the Peterine cross. But MUCH more recently, people who i guess are unaware of the story of saint Peter, have used the upside down cross as yet another devil sign.

But even knowing all of this - If any genuine religious icon is going to be respected then all genuine religious icons need to be respected.

The Cross, the Torii, the Pentacle, the Star of David, the Khanda, the Buddha, The Tao, the Om or Aum, some people may argue for the Star and Crescent, but in Islam it is not truly a holy symbol.

The iron cross is NOT really a holy cross but a political symbol, just as the swastika was for the National Socialist German Workers' Party. The swastika BEGAN as a holy symbol, but there is no question that it has been twisted into a symbol of hate. It is popular among hate groups and is forever made filthy because of it.

There are a few other symbols i will not write much about here in this GA thread. They are false symbols that are popular in IMVU simply because IMVU caters to those particular fetishes / disorders. A few are completely imaginary symbols made as part of a fictional sexist book series, and one is a co-opted crest that once had MUCH better meaning than it has come to represent now. Those symbols are good examples of IMVU double standards - IMVU does not allow people to write about their interest in those acts and those groups on their profile cards, BUT they DO allow those symbols to be displayed as badges, only taking them away if they have too much information written with them that would appear when you could still click on badges. Just adding that one symbol to even a GA product will instantly make that product AP due to sexual theme. As for the others, those made up ones from the book series - IMVU seems to be largely ignorant of them.

All i have to say about them is that officially IMVU allows that content...

And i think i may have the largest blocked list in IMVU history because i block any one who displays those badges.


Do you talk this much in RL or you just save it all up for us folk here at IMVU?

Imagine if they limited the number of characters you could use in a forum topic reply...lots of unhappy wafflers out there
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lets put this all in a new light to you the pentagram, upside down cross and iron cross has one meaning where to me and others it is wrong offensive and should not be on this site just like the flag where you see it as wrong and bad another do not it does not make either of us wrong or right it just means we think of these items differently ( one mans treasure is another mans junk )
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saffraina wrote:
lets put this all in a new light to you the pentagram, upside down cross and iron cross has one meaning where to me and others it is wrong offensive and should not be on this site just like the flag where you see it as wrong and bad another do not it does not make either of us wrong or right it just means we think of these items differently ( one mans treasure is another mans junk )


i am not disagreeing with your feelings at all. i only wanted to add to what you already wrote - i agree that the iron cross does not belong here any more than the swastika or the Confederate flag - they are all symbols of hate ideology.

The Pentagram has been taken over by the Satanists many years ago - the Pentacle by the Wiccans. As a Pentagram it is not really a religious symbol, as a Pentacle it is. so upright i think it must be respected just as the Cross or other holy icons are respected.

The upside down cross is not being used as a cross of Saint Peter - it is a childish excuse for a Satanic symbol - and as such it could qualify as a hate symbol since since it is anti-Christian. That is the point many people do not seem to recognize about Satanism, it is not an actual religion, it is an antithesis, a group basically dedicated to hedonism, and to mocking the faith of Christianity.

We have some different perspectives, but we agree more than disagree.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vester Flanagan (a gay black man) shoots a straight white woman on live television.

Lo and behold a Gay-Pride rainbow flag was found in his apartment.

Well, well, well...

Is IMVU now going to ban the gay-pride rainbow flag too?

I mean just to be consistent and prove that you don't have an ulterior motive for banning the Confederate Flag you must ban Flanagan's gay-pride flag from IMVU as well.

This was an obvious hate crime murder by definition and fits the same hate crime definition with Roof.

So what's it gonna be IMVU? Do you continue to show your obvious Yankee prejudice against Southern American Heritage or do you get consistent and ban the gay-pride rainbow flag from IMVU?

Its time for this insanity to stop.

Put the Confederate Flag back in the shop or ban the gay-pride flag.

Or expose yourself for supporting a prejudice Yankee agenda against Southern American Heritage that has nothing to do with a hate crime.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ oOKabbyOo

The Confederate flag is NOT a racist hate symbol of slavery and sedition because Mr. Roof chose to wear it.

Mr. Roof chose to wear the Confederate flag because it is a racist symbol of slavery, sedition and hate, and he agreed with what it stood for.

Did you happen to read the CEO's letter that this thread is made about?

In the letter, he cites what i have also cited in the thread, the statement made by the vice president of the Confederacy, regarding the founding of the Confederacy - what it stood for from the very beginning...

The Cornerstone Speech from Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens stated (in opposition to the United States), “Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition“.

That is the foundation of the Confederacy. And that is the foundation of the Confederate flag.

Following the civil war, it was 6 confederate soldiers that formed the Klan - and the Confederate flag was their first banner because that symbolized exactly what the Klan would stand for.

In time the Klan would expand its racism and hate rhetoric, adopting fascist ideology and adding it to their agenda - they would make other flags and other symbols but they kept the Confederate flag because it was the founding symbol of their racism toward black people, and their belief that black people were meant to be enslaved by white people.

The south of 2015 does NOT stand for such ideology of hate and racism at all, and as i wrote in this thread there are certainly reasons to take pride in the US south. But there is no part of that flag to take any pride in.

If you see it as history, that is true - it symbolizes the darkest part of US history, a horrible war over racism and slavery - Americans killing each other - it belongs in a war museum, not waving above any southern government office building.

If you want to call it heritage - it is the heritage of sedition, racism and slavery - again, NOT what the south of 2015 actually stands for at all - NOT any thing to take ANY pride in.

Revisionists have wanted to make the Confederate flag into a symbol of a time of antebellum prosperity in the south DURING slavery, when the white people were the masters and black people were slaves working in the plantations, the slave trade was as big a part of the economy as cotton and tobacco were - is that really the time you want to take pride in?

The Confederate flag is also waved in open disagreement and sedition against the US federal government - especially now when certain groups are so angry that the federal government has affirmed the civil rights of all people, including homosexual people, a popular target for the Klan to hate and for false Christian fundamentalists to preach hate and condemnation toward.

But just as popular, other revisionists repeat the same as you have written, that it stands for heritage, not hate - and you DO have every right to think as you wish to about that flag...

Believe any thing you wish about the flag, you certainly can decide what the flag means to YOU. Certainly fly that flag proudly at your home, on your own property if you wish.

But here at IMVU, and in more and more public places, and private places of business, people have been reminded of the actual history of that flag and what it originally stood for.

And so they have rightly placed it along side with all of the other racist hate symbols, because that is what it always stood for for so many.

You are free to your own beliefs
free to think what you want
free to speak your opinions
even when they are the minority view

but NOT free to force that view upon other people
at other people's business
on other people's property.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate your response. It is intelligent and helpful. It helps me to understand the other side of the topic. I support your right to what you believe. And I appreciate you supporting my right to my belief. Wink

The last statement is what gets me.

Quote:
You are free to your own beliefs
free to think what you want
free to speak your opinions
even when they are the minority view

but NOT free to force that view upon other people
at other people's business
on other people's property.


While disallowed by your belief, contradictingly this is exactly what is happening on imvu. This belief that the confederate flag that you hold to is forced upon me (the other people in your statement) by imvu.

To me this is a matter of freedom of speech and expression.

I do not (nor have I ever) condoned slavery. I don't personally see that flag as being about slavery or about superiority/inferiority of races, despite the fact that *some* people have used it for those reasons in the past. But as you said, this is my belief, and what you posted is your belief.

But for some reason your belief is forced upon me by new imvu policy. This is what I disagree with.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The First Amendment, in regards to Freedom of Speech doesn't mean what most think it does.

It means that, while you are free to speak your mind and opinions; no one else has to be forced to listen to it (ex. IMVU, myself, etc.), so I have the right to ignore/block you; just as a website has the right to ban/disable you. -- It also means that you cannot be arrested for what you say; so you're free to say it, just not when it comes to a place of business or where it's "not allowed", as they are allowed and within their rights to say "nope" and make it against their TOS.

For example. You won't be arrested for stating you hate a certain group of people; however, IMVU and other websites, among other businesses can say "You are in violation of our Terms of Service, and we have banned you from our website and/or business."

The same goes for the freedom of religion. You are free to believe and express your belief, and not be arrested for it; however a company/business can say that you may not do that on their website or property.

YOU ARE, however, allowed to own as many Confederate Flags, *** Flags, Nazi Flags, etc. as you want and wave them proudly in your own home, outside your home, in your car, etc. But that doesn't mean you can do so on Government property (since the flag is really only banned from being flown on government properties) or at various other places where they have the right to refuse you service.

That's what freedom of speech and religion really means.

IMVU is not a democracy, it's a place of business. You may not agree with their decision on the Confederate Flag, however, the business views the flag as a hate symbol and like with all other hate symbols (gang, terrorist group, etc.) they are not allowed, as per the TOS and Policies of IMVU. As such, and since IMVU is not a government, they can ban/disable a person for such things.

NOW... as far as flagging such things, it could take weeks up to months for something to be removed from the Catalog or the website. I do not agree with this, and feel that CS should know the ins and outs of IMVU's TOS and Policies of the catalog and general community; to remove such things as quickly as possible.



Disappointed in myself, that I actually posted again in this thread.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that we all must keep in mind is that it isn't only IMVU that's banning the Confederate flag, it's a movement across this country. It shouldn't be flying over a state house in South Carolina or Mississippi or anywhere else. It's not the flag of the United States of America. It represents division, if nothing else.

IMVU is following a nationwide trend to put the flag in a museum and not fly it public view where it tends to cause anger and hostility. Yep, there's history in that flag, and also history of hate.

Remember the blood that was shed under that flag, the soldiers and citizens who died for it, in the Civil War and after. Remember the history of the *** who slaughtered blacks and whites under that flag and then tell me it should be anywhere besides a museum.

Edit for spelling
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BraydenFinn wrote:
One thing that we all must keep in mind is that it isn't only IMVU that's banning the Confederate flag, it's a movement across this country. It shouldn't be flying over a state house in South Carolina or Mississippi or anywhere else. It's not the flag of the United States of America. It represents division, if nothing else.

IMVU is following a nationwide trend to put the flag in a museum and not fly it public view where it tends to cause anger and hostility. Yep, there's history in that flag, and also history of hate.

Remember the blood that was shed under that flag, the soldiers and citizens who died for it, in the Civil War and after. Remember the history of the *** who slaughtered blacks and whites under that flag and then tell me it should be anywhere besides a museum.

Edit for spelling




Yep, this pretty much sums up everything I really have to say. You made another post earlier too along the same lines, I liked it as well. Thank you!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ambrosyia wrote:
BraydenFinn wrote:
One thing that we all must keep in mind is that it isn't only IMVU that's banning the Confederate flag, it's a movement across this country. It shouldn't be flying over a state house in South Carolina or Mississippi or anywhere else. It's not the flag of the United States of America. It represents division, if nothing else.

IMVU is following a nationwide trend to put the flag in a museum and not fly it public view where it tends to cause anger and hostility. Yep, there's history in that flag, and also history of hate.

Remember the blood that was shed under that flag, the soldiers and citizens who died for it, in the Civil War and after. Remember the history of the *** who slaughtered blacks and whites under that flag and then tell me it should be anywhere besides a museum.

Edit for spelling




Yep, this pretty much sums up everything I really have to say. You made another post earlier too along the same lines, I liked it as well. Thank you!


Embarassed Thanks. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



i find "The Jeffersons" items in catalog i would like those banned also imvu. why has nobody mention this but only about the General Lee, an object that does not talk or use racial slurs? nobody mention "The Jeffersons" because no big deal is only racial slur against white people? more than likely yes that is why. where is your comment of this imvu? where is there a blog from Brett about this? hello? imvu?

yea didn't think so....

imvu you are so busy focus on tossing an illegal drug into the catalog that you dismiss other things. how about the ISIS (terrorist group) items STILL in catalog since BEFORE this bs started of the Confederate Flag? how about the ridiculous amount of Che Guevara item in catalog imvu? do you even know what he really was? where is imvu and user outrage for all these things? people just sit back and smoke pixel weed and cigarettes with pixel alcohol, promoting it as if so proud yet this other *** is in catalog and not one word from people. ashamed of so many here in imvu but mostly ashamed of imvu themself who have no care for ANYTHING unless it is spoke of in media.....

imvu you all hypocrites and make me sick.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find a lot in the catalog that's offensive. I try to fight what's marked GA and should be AP. I can fight till I'm blue in the face, but one person is only that: one person. There's so much that turns me off here I can't tell you every little thing cos the list is too long.

We try to fight every battle as it comes along. We don't always make progress but we don't give up. We don't like every reply we get, but we still write in the forums. The important thing is to never stop fighting.

Edit spelling
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ shynoah

i agree with you about ISIS / ISIL symbolism on products in the catalog - absolutely if you know for a fact they are supporting that terrorist jihad group then flag them as you find them as the hate products that they are - and send the links to me in PM i will flag them too.

But...

Be absolutely certain they ARE ISIS / ISIL supporting products, and NOT simply Muslim products / Islam products. Because Islam and ISIS / ISIL are NOT the same things.

Just as Christianity suffers due to the acts of false Fundamentalist extremists, Islam suffers due to the acts of Jihadist extremists. Even Atheism suffers due to the acts of the extreme anti-theists... all 3 of these belief systems have their violent extreme lunatic fringes, although with no question, the Jihadists are definitely the most violent at this time.
Fundamentalists are preaching for the mass murder of homosexual people, but have not organized into armed camps of murderers... not yet.

ISIS / ISIL is NOT actually Islam - it is terrorism under the guidance of extremists who twist ideology to mislead as many as possible to their cause - the exact same as fundamentalists and anti-theists do. Fundamentalists, anti-theists and Jihadists are ALL hate groups and ALL should be flagged in the catalog for hate until IMVU wakes up and removes those products.

Regarding the Jeffersons.. i confess i had not really heard of them, and had to do some peeping and Binging about in the wired.

It was actually a spin off show from another program that dealt with racism, called All In The Family, a show with a racist / bigot father, and a stereotypical ignorant / naive housewife living during the 1960s - 1970s in USA during the so-called hippie and civil rights movements and the period of some times violent unrest that followed.

They were intentionally making fun of racism, and the character of George Jefferson was intended as a black version of Archie Bunker, the white racist and bigot. Mr. Jefferson represented a black successful business man who felt justified in his racism toward white people for the acts of white people against his black skin. But Mr. Jefferson and Mr. Bunker over the course of their shows interacted and grudgingly learned to respect each other, and Mr. Jefferson's son Lionel, and the young man who married Mr. Bunker's daughter, Micheal Stivic, were both active in civil rights, they represented the younger generation speaking out against racism and in favor of equality.

So that is all i could find about those shows. They DID show racism, and they made fun of it. They supported equality and laughed at bigotry and hate.

If you have knowledge of the Jeffersons show ever displaying hate symbols then absolutely flag those - the Black Panthers were actively anti-white, if the Jeffersons had such symbolism in it, absolutely flag those.
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shynoah VIP Club Member

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikanojo wrote:
@ shynoah

i agree with you about ISIS / ISIL symbolism on products in the catalog - absolutely if you know for a fact they are supporting that terrorist jihad group then flag them as you find them as the hate products that they are - and send the links to me in PM i will flag them too.

But...

Be absolutely certain they ARE ISIS / ISIL supporting products, and NOT simply Muslim products / Islam products. Because Islam and ISIS / ISIL are NOT the same things.

Just as Christianity suffers due to the acts of false Fundamentalist extremists, Islam suffers due to the acts of Jihadist extremists. Even Atheism suffers due to the acts of the extreme anti-theists... all 3 of these belief systems have their violent extreme lunatic fringes, although with no question, the Jihadists are definitely the most violent at this time.
Fundamentalists are preaching for the mass murder of homosexual people, but have not organized into armed camps of murderers... not yet.

ISIS / ISIL is NOT actually Islam - it is terrorism under the guidance of extremists who twist ideology to mislead as many as possible to their cause - the exact same as fundamentalists and anti-theists do. Fundamentalists, anti-theists and Jihadists are ALL hate groups and ALL should be flagged in the catalog for hate until IMVU wakes up and removes those products.

Regarding the Jeffersons.. i confess i had not really heard of them, and had to do some peeping and Binging about in the wired.

It was actually a spin off show from another program that dealt with racism, called All In The Family, a show with a racist / bigot father, and a stereotypical ignorant / naive housewife living during the 1960s - 1970s in USA during the so-called hippie and civil rights movements and the period of some times violent unrest that followed.

They were intentionally making fun of racism, and the character of George Jefferson was intended as a black version of Archie Bunker, the white racist and bigot. Mr. Jefferson represented a black successful business man who felt justified in his racism toward white people for the acts of white people against his black skin. But Mr. Jefferson and Mr. Bunker over the course of their shows interacted and grudgingly learned to respect each other, and Mr. Jefferson's son Lionel, and the young man who married Mr. Bunker's daughter, Micheal Stivic, were both active in civil rights, they represented the younger generation speaking out against racism and in favor of equality.

So that is all i could find about those shows. They DID show racism, and they made fun of it. They supported equality and laughed at bigotry and hate.

If you have knowledge of the Jeffersons show ever displaying hate symbols then absolutely flag those - the Black Panthers were actively anti-white, if the Jeffersons had such symbolism in it, absolutely flag those.



i know about flagging items, i know what ISIS (terrorist group) is, i know of the show "The Jeffersons". thank you anyway?

i make no excuse for the show but if others do then ok is their choice. it was racism but i guess for some is fine since it only was "intentionally making fun of racism"...i do not feel it is ok. i don't care about stupid spin off show i am talking about a specific show. i'm thinking you maybe missed the point to my post. appreciate your words but i know already how to flag something.



hope you read my other post imvu and reply to me....i won't hold my breath Rolling Eyes
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