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A possible way off topic topic. Age Verify
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Iohannes79

Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 36
Location: USA - WA

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:38 am Post subject:

Better watch out! Reason too well on here, and they'll call it a 'legal discussion'! Never mind that all the talk about ID theft has to do with legalities, you put up a valid point that the law might come in, and BAM! It's censored and labeled 'legal talk'. Again IMVU DOESN'T CARE! After all, they are under limited liability and can do whatever the hell they want, and claim whatever they want invalid, regardless of how wise you logic is, and even if it might actually make sense with regards to improving their policies. IMVU DOESN'T CARE! :p

PinkiePie

Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 417
Location: USA - NY

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:42 am Post subject:

Keep calm and carry on, Iohannes.

badboy
Moderator

badboy <a href='/vip_club/'><img border=0 src='/catalog/web_images/vip_35x18.gif' width='35' height='18' alt='VIP Club Member'></a><!-- VIP Club Member Icon -->'s page

Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 15137
Location: USA - KS

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:27 am Post subject:

Iohannes79 wrote:

Better watch out! Reason too well on here, and they'll call it a 'legal discussion'! Never mind that all the talk about ID theft has to do with legalities, you put up a valid point that the law might come in, and BAM! It's censored and labeled 'legal talk'.

Again IMVU DOESN'T CARE! After all, they are under limited liability and can do whatever the hell they want, and claim whatever they want invalid, regardless of how wise you logic is, and even if it might actually make sense with regards to improving their policies. IMVU DOESN'T CARE! :p

The basis for the "No legal discussions allowed" is a valid one. Consider the following:

Am I a legal professional? Would you trust me if I said I was? What if I gave you legal advice that you relied on because of that? What if you came to harm, in some way, from following that advice?

IMVU has set down that rule for your protection, and the protection of everyone on here. Legal rulings, legal decisions, interpretations of the laws are up to those with a professional legal background.... attorneys, judges, prosecutors, etc.

Not any old IMVU user, especially if they say they are. True legal professionals know their liability should they make interpretations or recommendations (that's why all the disclaimers in ads).
_________________
As sexy and suave as Sean Connery. CS told me so!

RinaFanel13

Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 5534
Location: USA - CO

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:50 am Post subject:

PinkiePie wrote:

Quote:

But pinkie she is right. Imvu and other websites are extremely easy to fool. It may take a huge effort to do so but not every human is incapable of lying. It was easy to maintain an account for a kid to keep up an adult account if the kid is extremely mature.

Bolded to fix mistakes.

The kid's not mature (and would most likely be REALLY desperate) if it's lying and fooling everyone. I did state that this isn't a perfect world. You are expecting a leak-proof, perfect solution. Implementing the Age Verify now instead in the long run would nip this problem in the bud or at least lessen it.

Quote:

Also some of us are honest, i put my ssn in because it was my debit card, but i got the 20 bucks by asking my brother for it for Christmas. Yes i am an adult but if it's easy for an adult to ask for 20 bucks from a family member imagine how easy it is for a kid to ask their parents to pay, and then just tell them the ssn is to clarify that the person paying is and adult giving permission.

Touching story.

But a kid would be a whole lot harder. It was IMPOSSIBLE for my parents to lend me their credit/debit card when I was a kid. IM-FRIGGING-POSSIBLE. They would double-check, then triple-check what I want. And the questions. Oh man. But that's because I had loving parents who are concerned for my safety back then.

That parent would have to have an IQ of an asparagus (Look it up. I'm not joking. Also, I'm exaggerating. :v) to let anyone but themselves take their card for the kid's own purposes without checking.

Quote:

Like school permission slips, kids can easily use the same logic for Age verification. Also if you just scanned your card, not put in an ssn like many of us did when we first started, kids can just sneak a scan of the id of the credit card/debit car they used and block out everything but birthdate and name. There would be no way to tell if it is their id or not.

Here comes the conniving mindset. Again. You seem to forget that this is a public forum.

Quote:

To which all in all this is a hugely dangerous assumption since IMVU's own research figures suggest at least 5% of all AP accounts are held by minors.

And about 30 of the 40 hps with self admitted minors that i flag have Age Verification.

I think imvu's own research and flagging experience speak for themselves to me. It has nothing really to do with desperation. It is mostly curiosity. You see a bunch of users with ap, you can't see some of their outfits because it is restricted, you hear tales and talk of how cool it is, so you want it. It's that simple.

Like kids drinking alcohol and doing drugs, they hear about how you're not supposed to but how cool it is and bam you wanna try. Psychology backs that one. From 13 to about 25 for males and 11 to 24 for females the frontal lobe isn't developed (these are averages) and teens run purely off their lymbic system. The "I'm invincible, my parents, society,and school can't stop me," mentality.

Also I think Snowy failed to mention this properly but adults still buy alcohol for kids even if it is illegal. They go through the process of paying and being carded but they aren't drinking. It is the same with some AP and verified accounts.

Scanning an ID doesn't show the hologram and security seals that show a fake ID from a real one. And Minors still get into 18+ cards with fake IDs because forgers are getting better. And getting a fake ID is pretty easy these days according to the local news here in CO.

It really isn't that hars to get Age Verified. Ans there is no conniving, no desperation, just a person saying "You can't do that. It's not for minors" and you get the big red button conundrum all over again.

PinkiePie

Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 417
Location: USA - NY

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:09 am Post subject:

Quote:

To which all in all this is a hugely dangerous assumption since IMVU's own research figures suggest at least 5% of all AP accounts are held by minors.

And about 30 of the 40 hps with self admitted minors that i flag have Age Verification.

Pics or it didn't happen.

Quote:

I think imvu's own research and flagging experience speak for themselves to me. It has nothing really to do with desperation.

Yes, it has everything to do with desperation. Desperate to actually see these "foretold" clothing... or lack there of.

Quote:

Like kids drinking alcohol and doing drugs, they hear about how you're not supposed to but how cool it is and bam you wanna try. Psychology backs that one. The "I'm invincible, my parents, society,and school can't stop me," mentality.

Until someone eventually flags 'em. That "Invincible" Mentality you speak of? They like to talk. A lot. You imply as if they're going to be up there for long. Someone is bound to snipe them once they slip up. Pretty easy to spot once you get them.

Quote:

Also I think Snowy failed to mention this properly but adults still buy alcohol for kids even if it is illegal. They go through the process of paying and being carded but they aren't drinking. It is the same with some AP and verified accounts.

Again, you can't fix stupid.

Iohannes79

Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 36
Location: USA - WA

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:48 am Post subject:

badboy wrote:

Am I a legal professional? Would you trust me if I said I was?

There's where the reasoning fails. Nowhere did anyone claim to be a legal professional. It is opinion over a policy matter, which does have legal ramifications. That is undeniable. To give examples of legal matters is completely different than claiming to be a legal professional.

Quote:

What if I gave you legal advice that you relied on because of that? What if you came to harm, in some way, from following that advice?

Again, no one claimed to be legal professionals. No one said to follow their advice, let alone did not give out legal advice, other than maybe saying to be aware of the legal responsibilities and legal policies that are much like what IMVU has in policy. No one is saying that you should go out and do this, no one is giving advice, let alone claiming the authority to give such advice.

Quote:

IMVU has set down that rule for your protection, and the protection of everyone on here. Legal rulings, legal decisions, interpretations of the laws are up to those with a professional legal background.... attorneys, judges, prosecutors, etc.

In other words, you don't trust people to be able to read and discuss legal issues. Therefore, censor it because OMG! how dare anyone have an opinion over legal issues and actually discuss them! Keep them ignorant, so that IMVU can be happy with them being blindly stupid of what are at issue behind the terms they signed and agreed. I'm sorry, but that seems bad policy. Age verification has merit both as policy and legal matters. You can't have a valid discussion on it when you divorce one from the other.

Quote:

True legal professionals know their liability should they make interpretations or recommendations (that's why all the disclaimers in ads).

Again, no one CLAIMED to be a legal professional No one ADVISED to do anything. The discussion is over the IMVU POLICY of age verification, which does have to do with LEGAL matters. But, by your own reasoning, your very own explanation of why the policy is as it is, is already reaching into territory of legal matters. You asked in the first part, "Am I a legal professional?" Which would suggest, you're not, or at least is meant rhetorically to cast doubt that you may or may not be. So if you are not in the legal profession, and, by your reasoning here, then why are you speaking on policy and explaining the legal aspects of it, if this is against policy to do so? You just violated what you said is against policy to do, according to you reasoning of it. At the very least, if you're not one of those experts that are supposed to protect us from our own reasoning, why are you speaking for them when you are not the expert? Maybe because you know you're talking of opinion and not claiming to be an expert, and not advising anyone as if you are? Otherwise, and if your opinion of policy is correct, then you have violated the policy.

Iohannes79

Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 36
Location: USA - WA

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:17 am Post subject:

RinaFanel13 wrote:

Like kids drinking alcohol and doing drugs, they hear about how you're not supposed to but how cool it is and bam you wanna try. Psychology backs that one. From 13 to about 25 for males and 11 to 24 for females the frontal lobe isn't developed (these are averages) and teens run purely off their lymbic system. The "I'm invincible, my parents, society,and school can't stop me," mentality.

Be careful, unless you can profess to be an expert in psychology, this might be against policy to talk about. But even if it is, it only give an excuse to why kids may decide to do these things, it doesn't mean they ought to. It also doesn't reason for why age verification doesn't work, but rather the reason to have it and to work to improve upon it. We should try to make it harder for such kids to slip through and cause trouble by way of their immaturity and reckless behavior.

Quote:

It really isn't that hars to get Age Verified. Ans there is no conniving, no desperation, just a person saying "You can't do that. It's not for minors" and you get the big red button conundrum all over again.

Actually, all that conniving is there, and you actually attest to it and give one out of many reasons why they do it. Knowing the reasons they do it doesn't mean we should suddenly say that them doing it for those reasons merits the bad behavior. It gives reasons and excuses, it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be consequences for the actions.

PinkiePie

Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 417
Location: USA - NY

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:26 am Post subject:

Iohannes79 wrote:

Holy crap, I second this plus a billiondy more.

Y U HIDE THIS GENIUS FROM ME, IOHANNES?!

Iohannes79

Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 36
Location: USA - WA

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:30 am Post subject:

PinkiePie wrote:

Y U HIDE THIS GENIUS FROM ME, IOHANNES?!

It is not hidden, but well-preserved so that certain people that can't handle it can digest it before it gets erased by certain forces that don't like it. Wink

PinkiePie

Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 417
Location: USA - NY

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:40 am Post subject:

Welp, just know that I read it in before the cleanup.

XxMissSnowyxX

Joined: 24 Mar 2010
Posts: 2235
Location: Antarctica

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject:

sweetsexyvixen wrote:

Iohannes79 wrote:

All I know is SL doesn't make people pay for AP. You just have to age verify, to which they have various ways to do this, whether by last four numbers of social security card, driver's license, passport, or some other means of identification that would have your age and birth documented.

I figure, if SL, which has been doing this since about the end of 2008, certainly IMVU should be able to. They shouldn't even need to have us pay for AP, especially if sales are going good in Catalog, Music Store, and Bundle Vault, as well as VIP. After all, a credit card doesn't verify age, especially when anyone can gift AP to another member, or they can use parents' card.

This is the most annoying thing to me about IMVU, is how much they waffle and abuse AP members. Seriously, the fact that I don't have to be harassed about my age and pay for a product that's not really lived up to expectations makes me glad I can go to places like SL instead sometimes where they actually treat adults like adults.

This is the first time i have to agree...... i wish imvu would do the last 4 digits of social securaty.....

Only issue with that, IMVU can be used by countries that don't have a "Social Security System" in place.

Iohannes79 in regards to my last post, I did walk around the effectiveness of Age Verification, you said that I didn't but let me explain how I did so.

1. Being that a TOS does not say you can only access the account from a certain computer; I'll use myself as an example.

A logical observations need to be made first. Please keep in mind that this is a general observation and not a definitive.

Unless someone has a reason to question, they will assume.

Lets say for the sake of argument that i'm a user that likes to violate the TOS, and I have some ill will skeletons in my closet.

Now I go on IMVU and make 2 accounts. Both of the accounts will have AP and they will have Age Verification tokens.

TOS Violation #1 - I give one of my accounts to my new found "friend" who just happens to not be an adult. Telling them that if they tell anyone else what I have done, they will get in trouble.

How have I not just walked around the effectiveness of Age Verification?

Because as far as anyone is concerned I am using both accounts at the same time. Which might I also add, using 2 accounts at the same time from the same user is not a TOS Violation.

So as I have said before, the whole Age Verification process is a joke, and can be easily walked around, and proven to be about as effective as trying to staple jello to a tree.
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badboy
Moderator

Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 15137
Location: USA - KS

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:02 pm Post subject:

~reviewed and unlocked. _________________ As sexy and suave as Sean Connery. CS told me so!

badboy
Moderator

Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 15137
Location: USA - KS

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:10 pm Post subject:

Iohannes79 wrote:

I stated why the rule was there, gave examples. The simple fact is, that the rule is there. If you would like to post here, you will follow the rules, period.

When someone says "the law says this" or quotes it, or anything else, they are expressing a legal opinion, in IMVU's interpretation, and that is not allowed.

It's not about censorship. It's not about squashing your right to say what you want - it's about what IMVU will and will not allow. It is their sandbox, you play by their rules.

IMVU has their own method of age verification. Again, if you do not like it, you may ask for it to be changed - or go play in someone else's sandbox.

Finally, be careful how far you stray into AP territory, this is a GA section of the forum, and that rule will be strictly enforced.
_________________
As sexy and suave as Sean Connery. CS told me so!

Iohannes79

Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 36
Location: USA - WA

Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:00 pm Post subject:

badboy wrote:

It is their sandbox, you play by their rules.

IMVU is a company in the United States, they have to abide by US laws. I adhear to US law over a pixle toy company. So bye!

RinaFanel13

Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 5534
Location: USA - CO

Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:30 am Post subject:

Iohannes79 wrote:

badboy wrote:

It is their sandbox, you play by their rules.

IMVU is a company in the United States, they have to abide by US laws. I adhear to US law over a pixle toy company. So bye!

Actually IMVU is a private company in the use with legally appointed terms of.service and conduct rules much like those found in walmart. While walmart can't tell you what you can and cannot say in their store because of freedom of speech, they can have you legally removed from the premises by policy for causing a scene inside their stores.

Yes IMVU has to give you Constitutional rights, but you signed a legal document or rather agreed to a Terms Of Services binding you to follow company policy as well.

And yes this kind of thing doesn't count as legal advice. It counts as business advice.

All private US companies hold the right to tell customers who use their services how to conduct themselves while within the company's territory. This site and the client fall under IMVU Incs Terms of Service holding you accountable for your behavior.

See here:

Quote:

Site Etiquette

IMVU asks that you respect the IMVU online community as well as other individuals participating within the IMVU online community. Your conduct should be guided by common sense and basic etiquette. To further these common goals, when posting Submissions to or otherwise using this Site, you agree not to, without limitation:

Post anything that exploits children or minors or participate in a group that exploits children or minors. Post content involving sexualized "age play" (regressive role-play in which one or more characters is a minor) in which any participant, character or role is or may be perceived as being anything other than a consenting adult. Post any content that is mature or adult in nature on the "general audience" section of this Site that is inappropriate for a general audience. This is more appropriate for the "adult section" of this Site. All content posted to your Avatar Card, including but not limited to the profile picture, avatar/account name and tagline, must be appropriate for "general audiences." Misrepresent your age in a manner that, if you are an adult makes you appear to be a minor or, if you are a minor, is anything but your actual age. Use explicit/obscene language or solicit/post sexually explicit images (actual or simulated) or to participate in racially, ethnically, or otherwise offensive language. Defame, abuse, harass, stalk, threaten, or otherwise violate the legal rights (such as rights of privacy and publicity) of others. Post any copyrighted or trademarked materials without the express permission from the owner. Impersonate or represent IMVU, our staff or other industry professionals. Post off-topic messages or disrupt the flow of chat in any manner that includes, without limitation, abusive or vulgar language. Solicit a user's password or other account information. Harvest user names, avatar names, addresses, homepage URL's or email addresses for any purpose other than your personal use in your interactions on this Site. Post information that makes available or includes another individual's personally identifiable information (for example, their real name, e-mail address, postal address, phone number, employer or school). Disseminate any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, 'junk mail', 'spam', 'chain letters', 'pyramid schemes', or any other form of such solicitation. Discuss or incite illegal activity. Post anything that depicts cruelty to animals. Alter or interfere with IMVU's site, Products or operations by employment of 3rd party scripts, code, bots, etc. Remove, hide, or obscure access to IMVU tools used to report a user or their behavior.

IMVU strives to create an enjoyable place for all our users. Users must not post anything that may trigger a PhotoSensitive Epilepsy (PSE) episode for users who suffer from such symptoms. Such content includes but is not limited to flashing lights and contrasting visual patterns. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosensitive_epilepsy for more information and see our Virtual Goods Policy for additional guidelines to which you must comply.

This list of prohibitions provides examples and is not complete or exclusive. IMVU reserves the right to (a) terminate your access to your account, your ability to post to this Site and (b) refuse, delete or remove any Submissions or reclassify Submissions and move them, for example, from "public" to "private" or "restricted/adult" status; for any action that IMVU determines is inappropriate or disruptive to this Site or to any other user of this Site with or without cause and with or without notice, for any reason or no reason. IMVU reserves the right to restrict the number of emails or other messages which you are allowed to send to other users to a number that IMVU deems appropriate in IMVU's sole discretion. IMVU may report to law enforcement or other appropriate government authorities any actions that may be suspicious or illegal, and any reports it receives of such conduct. When legally required or at IMVU's discretion, IMVU will cooperate with law enforcement or appropriate government agencies in any investigation. You hereby acknowledge and agree that in using this Site, you may be exposed to content that may be offensive or objectionable to you. YOU HEREBY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT ALL SUBMISSIONS SUBMITTED BY YOU OR ANY OTHER USER EXPRESS THE VIEWS OF THE AUTHOR, AND IMVU WILL NOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR OR LIABLE FOR THE CONTENT IN SUCH SUBMISSIONS. Your access to and use of the Site is undertaken at your own risk and IMVU is not responsible for any offensive, harmful or otherwise objectionable materials that may be posted by any third party

These prohibitions do not require IMVU to monitor, police, or remove any Submissions or other information submitted by you or any other user, and IMVU disclaims any obligation or responsibility to do so.

You understand that your interactions and dealings with other users of this Site are solely between you and such other user. IMVU is not responsible for any loss, harm or damage of any sort incurred as a result of any such interactions or dealings, and IMVU has no obligation to become involved in any resulting dispute.

Also see here:
http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&t=402843

There is an email you can send a dispute to if you think imvu is wrong in the above link.

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