512x512 textures - what a...
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Ebonita VIP Club Member

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:22 am    Post subject: 512x512 textures - what a... Reply with quote

Hi

It may sound rude, but it isn't.
Sometimes i feel me like Alice in Wonderland. Something strange happens arround me, but everybody take it as only possible normal.

The biggest texture allowed in IMVU is 256x512 (or 512x256). It isn't mentioned clearly by IMVU' rules, but allmoust all big creators know that doubtless. If you load a 512x512 texture into IMVU, you get 256x256 qualty, even slightly less that one, if you would load a 256x256 texture directly.

Everybody who shall know this, know this. BUT! New meshes are comming in tonns, allmoust all of them using 512x512 textures. Briliant meshers ruins his own brilliant work, making it needless big and poor textured. Why to place all pieces on one 512x512 sheet, when being parted in 2 256x512 sheets it would take more than 2 times less place and give a 4 times better texture quallity?

Weirder an weirder...

Everybody seems to know this but ignore this all the time. Are some secret rules existing? Rules, that forbide to make items with small weight but big quality? I don't think so. I know at least one creator using several 256x512 textures instead of one 512x512 sheet. This creator is not being imprisoned or tortured for this - so why other are not doing the same way? Is it really so pleasurable to see, what a crap you become from IMVU instead of your fine textures? To see as your fine zippers, seams and writings become pixelated something you don't want to look from near at? It is not bad IMVU ruining your textures - it's your own fault!

I'm not asking to make textures on right way. I'm just asking - why?


PS: There is possible to improove texture quallity near to twice even in this situation - just compress it in wight or height direction twice - to 256x512 proportion. Or 512x256 - you have to decide it on your own, looking on the texture you want to compress. It is better to compress it along of lines you want to preserve more than other in the texture.
Just try - the improovement is stunning!
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twistednanny

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is because the UVW Map is a square shape texture.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Ok.

But how they get 256x512 Maps?
Have seeing a lot of them.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UV maps can be made in any size or any ratio. A mesher, if they know how to generate them, can make them any way they choose.

So either them mesher doesn't know about the issues that texturers face, or they have chosen to do it they way they do for a reason, or they don't care and just did a simple unwrap.

For those that do it for a reason it basically boils down to that there are two drastically different types of derivers meshers are catering too...

-There are the peeps that just want to slap and image on it or do a quick recolor and be done. For them one map is what they want.

-Then there are those who really want to work on the texturing, for those the custom multiple materials maps are best.

I know your pain as that is the main reason I took up meshing in the first place, because when I was starting there were very few meshes designed with the texture artists needs in mind. My best recommendation (sans learning to mesh yourself) is to find the meshers that do things the way you like and let them know so they know its appreciated and keep on doing it.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a simply comparsion:

Initally we have a 512x512 texture sheet, wich i have filled with my vest texture.

Look what happens with my texture when i load it into IMVU as is:




Now i simly reduce it into 256x256 size:




As you see, it's allmost no diferrence between original 512x512 texture and redused 256x256 texture, the last one looks even a bit better, as for my eyes.


Let us see what we may do to improve the texture quality...

I compress the sheet horisontally to 256x512 size and load it into IMVU:



The patch and buttons looks much better now!


And the last position - vertical comression to 512x256 size:



Well...
Butons and Patch are looking not so good again still better than at first two cases and vertical seams are near to perfect. I would prefer this art of comression for this texture. For another texture previous one would probably work better.

The rule is: compress ALONG the lines you want to preserve. In this texture i prefer to preserve vertical seams, so i compress texture vertically.
But in any case, vertically or horisontally comressing your texture, you will get better results as just loading your texture into IMVU in it's initial 512x512 size.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to me all those looks almost the same.
but if you make the mesh and size the map to 512 by 256 yes you can make it look better but this size will not work on every mesh on imvu if the texture apply in max was not made to work on this size.. the mesher has to make it work on max when they unwrap the mesh.

http://www.imvu.com/creators/education_center.php?tutorial_id=2225832

long time ago textures of 512 by 512 used to work on imvu.
and yes lot of meshers / developers used the wrong size.. but what can you do.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see a world of difference, the buttons and patch are so improved in the 3rd picture, and the zipped pocket is way better in the 4th picture.

I think your point would be better demonstrated if you chopped your pictures into the relevant areas and put them directly next to each other.

Derivers should then take note, there are so many poor quality items in the catty that could be improved just by resizing textures.

Meshers should take note and start producing some derivables where, for example, each side of the front of a jacket is a 256x512 texture, then we could start to see some real detailing in clothes.

It is crazy that you can find an earring mesh that uses a 256x512 texture that results in so much detail that you can't even begin to appreciate it on the client, and then be expected to make a good job of clothing using the same size but stretched to fit the avatar from head to toe.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends on how you unwrapped the mesh. I am one of those who wants to see all the details. Some times "not all the time" I make my map 512x512. Based on my personal trial, I lose a lot of details I want if I am making it 512x256. I re size all of my textures to 256x256 and try both the big and the small ones. If it is okay with 256x256, I submit. If not, I make it 512x512.

Like in this:
http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=12654876

The horse body is little big so I want to reflect the wood details. When I used 256x256 map, I got a very blurred results.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pharmacist wrote:
It depends on how you unwrapped the mesh. I am one of those who wants to see all the details. Some times "not all the time" I make my map 512x512. Based on my personal trial, I lose a lot of details I want if I am making it 512x256. I re size all of my textures to 256x256 and try both the big and the small ones. If it is okay with 256x256, I submit. If not, I make it 512x512.

Like in this:
http://www.imvu.com/shop/product.php?products_id=12654876

The horse body is little big so I want to reflect the wood details. When I used 256x256 map, I got a very blurred results.

I do the same thing on some meshes if i need it..
and to Rhianna not sure if you mesh, I can`t see any products on your catalog.
but so you know we are limited to 2 mb on imvu.. and the size of textures we used for a mesh need to be the best we can on the smaller size we can fit them on the wire map, cos the texture can get bigger than the mesh.
for example
a ring mesh can be in the range of 150 kb so we can add a big wire mesh and the final product may be in the range of 400 kb.
a jacket mesh can be in the range of 300 / 500 kb. if the mesher add few wire maps 512 by 256 to texture whit more details the final product can get of the size of a room or bigger and it may not fit on imvu.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The max size is 256x512 or 512x256, anything else is down-sampled (re-sized).

You get better results using larger textures not because the client is using them directly, but because the down-sample process has more pixel data to work with; a 1024x1024 image is physically re-sized to 256x512 or 512x256 so your 'button' detailing is generally 4x as large in that 1024 - there is 4x the pixels for it to be correctly drawn after being re-sampled in the Client.

However, there doesn't appear to be a logical process with regards to which orientation taken for the down-sample process - 512x256 or 256x512. It does matter and can result in some blurring.

@ Rhianna: meshers could split items into segments but as Jaleman31 alluded to, it opens up a whole can of worms with respective file sizes and other game engine and memory usage optimsations.. you can't simply make things bigger or have more without it effecting the programs 'weight' - just as eating a lot of food makes us slow and fat, it does the same thing for software.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I am a mesher, but I only sell files for furniture and rooms.

I am positive there is room for improvement on clothes detailing without making their file sizes larger than some of the hair or accessory meshes out there.

If it's possible that one thigh length boot uses a 256x512 texture size for each boot, then why not for each leg of a pair of pants instead of doggedly sticking to the original avatar wireframe size of less than half of a 256x512 texture?

Sleeves and arms are absolutely awful with regards to the space they are allocated on the old map ... we just need more meshers to come up with better solutions.

I'm not advocating a sweeping change, just that it would be nice to have a few quality meshes to choose from to create that special item with ... not all of us want clothes to wear in a room full of high kb avatars, I think there is a demand for quality amongst certain users.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaleman31 wrote:
if the mesher add few wire maps 512 by 256 to texture whit more details the final product can get of the size of a room or bigger and it may not fit on imvu.


Jaleman31, you seem to not to get the point. I'm not asking to use 256x512 textures instead of 256x256 ones. I just propose to split 512x512 texture into 2 256x512 sheets. As soon as i know it, 2 256x512 jpgs together takes much less place than one 512x512 jpg.

And... what a hell! Why to make IMVU' graphcal apperiance even worser then it is allowed?!!
It looks like some conspiracy: Evil Allien Brain will not kill IMVU when IMVU will try to look as cheep as possible.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhianna wrote:
...I'm not advocating a sweeping change...
You're not no, but the result of it would be as one wouldn't be the only person in the room with that type of multi segmented outfit/item/room - just as one isn't when people use high-res 'packs' & items.

When that happens it does put a lot of strain on the system, and not just from a content download/distribution point of view... because ALL content is loaded dynamically - even when it's cached the system still checks - the more data it has to find, process and render, the worse performance gets cumulatively.

That's why everything is stuck within the limits of 256x512/512x256, you can't in any practical sense go above that, based on IMVU's current system, except perhaps to 512x512, which is still within IMVU rendering range, because of the aforementioned issues it cause.

Having said that... there's absolutely nothing to stop you from splitting new meshes into segments right now, you just have to be pragmatic about it.... torso mapped to one texture, arms to another... the only reason people generally don't do that right now is that they're using the avi meshes as the basis of their new work and that usually means they don't actually know what they're doing (I mean that in the literal sense of not fully understanding UVW mapping and mesh layout and not the derogatory sense that that statement may have come across as being)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jazzKat wrote:

Having said that... there's absolutely nothing to stop you from splitting new meshes into segments right now, you just have to be pragmatic about it.... torso mapped to one texture, arms to another... the only reason people generally don't do that right now is that they're using the avi meshes as the basis of their new work and that usually means they don't actually know what they're doing (I mean that in the literal sense of not fully understanding UVW mapping and mesh layout and not the derogatory sense that that statement may have come across as being)


... and that's basically what I'm asking more meshers to do.

There are thousands of stupidly high kb products out there that people will always abuse, asking for quality meshes makes no difference to that.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It creates a compound issue - multi textured outfits + highres textures +large file size... There's a phrase in real-time (game) development more IMVU creators need to learn/understand...

"Just because you can, doesn't mean you should"

Wink
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