Barbarians/Picts/Gauls/Visigoths/Vikings/Celts and stuff!
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RinaFanel 18+ Age Verified

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:35 pm    Post subject: Barbarians/Picts/Gauls/Visigoths/Vikings/Celts and stuff! Reply with quote

Now I've noticed an increase in people who play Goths and other Barbarians. I've actually come across a few vikings and I've noticed there's not a topic about these kinds of people to house information on things like Society structures, beliefs, and folklore of these people. We've a lot on Vampires, Healers, and other wonderfully magic things like Elves and Drow but what about the poor humans?

"A barbarian is an uncivilized person. The word is often used pejoratively, either in a general reference to a member of a nation or ethnos, typically a tribal society as seen by an urban civilization either viewed as inferior, or admired as a noble savage. In idiomatic or figurative usage, a "barbarian" may also be an individual reference to a brutal, cruel, warlike, insensitive person. The term originates in the ancient Greek civilization, meaning "anyone who is not Greek". Comparable notions are found in non-European civilizations." (wikipedia)

Because most of these "strangers" regularly practiced raids upon these civilizations, the term Barbarian gradually evolved into a pejorative term: a person who was sub-human, uncivilized, and regularly practiced the most vile and inhuman acts imaginable. Nothing could have been farther from the truth. (crystalinks)

Historically Barbarians were a tribal people generally nomadic who lived off the land and had a sort of understanding of it. The most noted Barbarians are the Gauls, Vandals, Franks, Goths, Visigoths, Huns, Ostrogoths, Vikings, Magyars (Hungarians), Moravians, Khazar (The Thousands in Afghanistan), The Finns, Picts, Celts, and Believe it or not the Anglos, Saxons, Vikings, Moors, African Tribes, Aborigines, and Native Americans (Both Central South and North Americans). (various websites will link)

Fictionally we have Conan, Goreans, The Wendol (Eaters of the Flesh), and a few other scattered ones like Thundarr the Barbarian and so forth.

And though there are many more I'll leave it up to other to try and find the rest. Cause it's rather...large world out there as to what was classified as Barbaric. I'll only touch on a few.

Since most of these groups were tribal in their society they had a different outlook on life and the structure of government within their tribes. A good portion of them were Matriarchal. This means that Women were held in a high regard as mothers, matrons, and supporters of life. Women were generally left to care for the children and gather food, but were still worshiped (In most cases) for their ability to produce life and take it. Yes women were able to defend themselves, and men knew this, which is why most tribal societies are able to leave their women to tend to matters while their men hunted.

Some were also Patriarchal. They believed in the source of masculinity as a form of power and that men were naturally born to be leaders. They saw strength as a way of showing power and they were well into the belief that the father was the source of power in both the male and female entities. This held no real dominance play for power though as most would just set their leadership based on which male proved to be a better group leader and showed courage in a fight. Or who was a better hunter when it came to supplying the tribe with food. Most if this is seen as a display of masculine dominance over the other mailes in the tribe.

This however doesn't state whether or not they were strictly a Male dominant society and through my readings it is my understanding that there were no real "Barbarian authority" as to if women were still not held in high standards. Though maybe not able to hold places of power they were still revered for their ability to give birth, which a Male could not simulate and therefore they still revered their woman as somewhat mystical and powerful in their own sense later being involved in the folklore as to the mother earth and how life sprung forth from goddesses of various beliefs. Though they did say this came from the Father's side of the woman. It is again my understanding that women were seen as important for their talents and nurturing skills.

Slavery was common in some tribes, usually that of rivals that were conquered, and in the case of the Native Americans they were eventually Assimilated into the tribe after a certain period of time. In this it's safer to say that a rival tribe was more like an indentured servant than a forced slave. Though they were not allowed to leave the tribal area without someone with them, they were still treated as people. Again this is only in some tribes and only from some gathered information.

Anyway with that said as an introduction I will leave the rest of you to read what sources I've used to compile this and now I'll post the websites I've compiled this information from so you may read and further your knowledge. Please feel free to share any of YOUR Findings for I'm sure that there is much much more out there and it is my wish that we are able to post sources and findings rather than arguments and general misunderstandings. Yes please discuss what you find, share your knowledge, and develop the idea I hope to have shared with you.

Sites:

[history-world.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[www.african-tribes.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[www.lib.washington.edu]
[www.greatdreams.com]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[www.imdb.com]
[library.thinkquest.org]
[www.sociologyguide.com]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[www.crystalinks.com]
[historymedren.about.com]
[www.spain-barcelona.com]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[www.google.com]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[halfmoon.tripod.com]
[www.orkneyjar.com]
[www.independent.co.uk]
[www.ibiblio.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[www.cwo.com]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[www.wsu.edu]
[www.highbeam.com]
[www.johnderbyshire.com]
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CountVladDracula 18+ Age Verified

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen a surge in these too but the amateur Historian in me has been sorely disappointed by most of them. Many of these rooms' rules and such strongly emphasize things that are actually just thinly disguised lifestype RP. It ignores important other aspects of the history for the sake of favoring something that leans more toward a particular AP lifestyle rather than actual history. I would be pleased to see one that is truly historically accurate but I've started to view the words Barbarian and Viking as code for something else entirely.

For starters, in these rooms, the slaves are almost all women and almost none of them are actually conquered enemies or prisoners to point out the first historical flaw.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*nods* At least on IMVU it's become a code word. Hollywood and some literature are to blame I must say. The popularity of playing someone who seems to be driven by the basic needs of life is getting to be a little darker than usual. Also I must say that a great deal of the "Barbarians" had some of the more sophisticated tribal cultures from religion to cast system to how they traveled. Viking long boats are a good start when digging up information about Barbarians.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RinaFanel13 wrote:
*nods* At least on IMVU it's become a code word. Hollywood and some literature are to blame I must say. The popularity of playing someone who seems to be driven by the basic needs of life is getting to be a little darker than usual. Also I must say that a great deal of the "Barbarians" had some of the more sophisticated tribal cultures from religion to cast system to how they traveled. Viking long boats are a good start when digging up information about Barbarians.


There's actually a historical film I've come to love. It's out of print now but you can get a used copy fairly cheap on amazon or ebay. It's from 2000 and it's called Dracula: The Dark Prince (Not to be confused with the Hammer horror 60s movie Dracula: The Prince of Darkness). Dracula: The Dark Prince starred Rudolf Martin (who also played Dracula in the show Buffy The Vampire Slayer).

It deals with the life of the historical figure of Dracula but they change a few small details to make it more dramatic and then toward the end it ties in the vampire myth, providing an explanation as to how the historical figure became a vampire. So it's very much historical fantasy set in fifteenth century Eastern Europe. I wouldn't mind an RP setting like that. It was very realistic, historically speaking.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to study about the celts a lot back in the days in my pastime. It just struck me because I really liked their art and music, and their languages. I found quite a lot more of the surprising things I liked. Now a days the offspring of celts live in Scotland, Wales, Bretagne and Ireland. It also triggered my will to travel in those areas.

I have also been curious of Kalevala, which is the national epic book of my country, full of authentic ancient mythology, poetry and spells. They were carefully preserved when there was this oral tradition still left. I was curious, because some foreign artists and authors have also shown interest in a book like this. It's language is different to modern one as well.

Both celtic and finnish cultures are really, really old, and though they have changed, we still remember where our deep roots are. And both people were called as barbarians in the past. Razz

And languages from both (welsh and finnish) were used to create elvish. Laughing

However, the RP I have seen in IMVU has been more fantasy than history or real epic based.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elainiwen wrote:
I used to study about the celts a lot back in the days in my pastime. It just struck me because I really liked their art and music, and their languages. I found quite a lot more of the surprising things I liked. Now a days the offspring of celts live in Scotland, Wales, Bretagne and Ireland. It also triggered my will to travel in those areas.

I have also been curious of Kalevala, which is the national epic book of my country, full of authentic ancient mythology, poetry and spells. They were carefully preserved when there was this oral tradition still left. I was curious, because some foreign artists and authors have also shown interest in a book like this. It's language is different to modern one as well.

Both celtic and finnish cultures are really, really old, and though they have changed, we still remember where our deep roots are. And both people were called as barbarians in the past. Razz

And languages from both (welsh and finnish) were used to create elvish. Laughing

However, the RP I have seen in IMVU has been more fantasy than history or real epic based.


Exactly. I'd love to see a fantasy set in a realistic historical setting, not just the code-word-for-something-else version of Barbarian and Viking. It's getting depressing.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pulling some more of my own post here, the others who posted in the market are welcome to add their own information from there to here as I won't post it here without your permission.

________________________________________________________________


On another note! Gypsies! Believe it or not Gypsies had fallen into the ranks of "Barbarians" By the Greeks and Romans too!

In actuality Gypsies originated from India and have methods and beliefs FAR from ever being considered barbaric.

Here's a few sites on the Gypsies:

[www.religioustolerance.org]
[larp.com]
[www.everyculture.com]

Posted cause I'm playing a Rom in a Vampire: The Masquerade setting and thought to share some of my jeweled findings.

I guess it's safe to say that those considered barbaric and barbarians were actually nothing of the sort. It's just a general term given to people who are strong with a tribal or nomadic way of living. It would be more a Character Class than a Race.

Japanese had their "Barbarians" too!!

" Japan's first history books were written in the early eighth century in the form of the short Kojiki and the much larger Nihon Shoki. The contents in the books regarding the earliest ages are disputable. They become more or less reliable after the late seventh century AD
Japanese territory today is composed of four main islands; however, seventh century Japan lacked the whole of Hokkaido and the northern half of the Tohoku (northeast) region of Honshu: the Emishi lived in the Tohoku and Hokkaido areas; the Ashihase lived in Hokkaido. By the seventeenth century, the Japanese inhabited all of Honshu and the southern edge of Hokkaido. By that time the Emishi of Hokkaido, known as Ezo, lived there as well as Chishima (Kuril islands), and Karafuto (Sakhalin): they are known today as Ainu. Little is known as to what happened to the Ashihase by the early modern period. Most likely they were displaced by the Ainu who moved further north.

The question regarding 'who were the Emishi?' breaks down into: were they the direct ancestors of the Ainu? Or were they the ancestors of modern Japanese? I will attempt to give a summary answer to this question of who they were according to what we know from studies done in physical anthropology, archeology and history.

There were three races in ancient Japan: Japanese, Emishi (later Ainu) and Ashihase (possibly Okhotsk). Historical literature supports the theory that the Emishi were considered rebels by the Japanese, and therefore potentially subjects by way of conquest. Consistently, the Japanese divided them into those who had submitted themselves to Yamato rule as allies and subjects, and those who were outside their authority. Those outside imperial authority were seen as "barbarians" beyond the frontier. Michinoku, the name the Yamato Japanese had given for the Tohoku, literally translates as "deepest road" with the connotation of a far away place: the Emishi were seen as inhabitants of this far away land, beyond the frontier. The Ashihase were thought of as a foreign people altogether, and it is not clear who they were; however, in the latest research there are tantalizing clues that the relationship between the Ashihase and the Emishi mirrored the relationship between the Japanese and the Emishi . That is, just as the Japanese were completing their conquest of the Tohoku region, Emishi began to consolidate more of Hokkaido. The Ashihase were most likely an Amur river people who were definitely East Asian hunter-gatherers who moved south from Sakhalin into Hokkaido and were either absorbed or conquered by the Emishi of the Satsumon culture. The Satsumon consolidated their hold about the same time that the Tohoku Emishi began to migrate into Hokkaido (see especially Yamaura 1999:42-45, and the in-depth discussion by Crawford implying that the Tohoku Emishi may have actually created the Satsumon culture. Satsumon is a name of a culture that is ancestral to the Hokkaido Ainu."

Cause i really fdidn't want to try and type all those names >.<

anyway

LINKS!:

[emishi-ezo.net]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[www.japan-101.com]
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I love Gypsy / Romani. It's a very interesting culture that still exists today. The character Dracula can speak Vax Romani (I can't). And gypsies certainly are not Barbarians. They are very spiritual with a culture steeped in tradition. if I ever bring up gypsies in my RP I try to do it with the most respect as I possibly can for the real peoples.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In terms of actually being a barbarian and being considered a barbarian, depending on the time and area several groups of people could be 'considered' a barbarian whether or not they actually were by any cultural standard of their own. The Chinese for a good portion of their early history considered anyone and everyone outside of China to be a barbarian and believed that they had the mores and scruples of wolves, which to Chinese people at the time, were greedy, unthinking, vicious takers in the world and a natural opponent of a civilized, thinking human being.

Variance of type of people and serious understanding or contemplation of just who they are beyond a label is something extremely hard to find in most rp. A well considered barbarian horde would be astoundingly interesting...and that's not even my area of interest.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kamen wrote:

Variance of type of people and serious understanding or contemplation of just who they are beyond a label is something extremely hard to find in most rp. A well considered barbarian horde would be astoundingly interesting...and that's not even my area of interest.


Yes, I agree.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I already described in the first post though what "Barbarian" is supposed to be. Again it was used as an insult almost to people who the Greekss and other groups considered to be "uncivilized" I'm not saying they are or are not, please keep that in mind. *Posts the quote again*

"A barbarian is an uncivilized person. The word is often used pejoratively, either in a general reference to a member of a nation or ethnos, typically a tribal society as seen by an urban civilization either viewed as inferior, or admired as a noble savage. In idiomatic or figurative usage, a "barbarian" may also be an individual reference to a brutal, cruel, warlike, insensitive person. The term originates in the ancient Greek civilization, meaning "anyone who is not Greek". Comparable notions are found in non-European civilizations." (wikipedia)

They're Not barbaric but this is where we get the term.

Posted again with a bolded part cause I got an HP message from someone saying I just called their culture barbaric...*Sighs* Does anyone read first posts these days?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't opposing your definition, but supplementing it with the information on China and the point of view of that culture. One can never have too much information...in regards to history.

Edit to add...I'm not being offensive/defensive by saying that. I just wanted to clarify in the case that you thought others weren't paying attention when they posted here.


Last edited by Kamen on Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RinaFanel13 wrote:
I already described in the first post though what "Barbarian" is supposed to be. Again it was used as an insult almost to people who the Greekss and other groups considered to be "uncivilized" I'm not saying they are or are not, please keep that in mind. *Posts the quote again*

"A barbarian is an uncivilized person. The word is often used pejoratively, either in a general reference to a member of a nation or ethnos, typically a tribal society as seen by an urban civilization either viewed as inferior, or admired as a noble savage. In idiomatic or figurative usage, a "barbarian" may also be an individual reference to a brutal, cruel, warlike, insensitive person. The term originates in the ancient Greek civilization, meaning "anyone who is not Greek". Comparable notions are found in non-European civilizations." (wikipedia)

They're Not barbaric but this is where we get the term.


Yes, exactly. The fact is basic anthropology would tell you that the generic idea of Barbarian (the hulking muscular guy carrying a large sword on his back, and gnawing on a bone while holding a woman by a chain leash) would not be able to sustain itself as a society. Barbarian was usually a term used as a form of racism against anyone who was not a part of whatever society wanted to conquer the 'strange' other people. And I guess that's part of what bothers me about many Barbarian rooms.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kamen wrote:
I wasn't opposing your definition, but supplementing it with the information on China and the point of view of that culture. One can never have too much information...in regards to history.

Edit to add...I'm not being offensive/defensive by saying that. I just wanted to clarify in the case that you thought others weren't paying attention when they posted here.


I wasn't addressing you. Please see the last bit of the post.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IamCountDracula wrote:
RinaFanel13 wrote:
I already described in the first post though what "Barbarian" is supposed to be. Again it was used as an insult almost to people who the Greekss and other groups considered to be "uncivilized" I'm not saying they are or are not, please keep that in mind. *Posts the quote again*

"A barbarian is an uncivilized person. The word is often used pejoratively, either in a general reference to a member of a nation or ethnos, typically a tribal society as seen by an urban civilization either viewed as inferior, or admired as a noble savage. In idiomatic or figurative usage, a "barbarian" may also be an individual reference to a brutal, cruel, warlike, insensitive person. The term originates in the ancient Greek civilization, meaning "anyone who is not Greek". Comparable notions are found in non-European civilizations." (wikipedia)

They're Not barbaric but this is where we get the term.


Yes, exactly. The fact is basic anthropology would tell you that the generic idea of Barbarian (the hulking muscular guy carrying a large sword on his back, and gnawing on a bone while holding a woman by a chain leash) would not be able to sustain itself as a society. Barbarian was usually a term used as a form of racism against anyone who was not a part of whatever society wanted to conquer the 'strange' other people. And I guess that's part of what bothers me about many Barbarian rooms.


I bet you that most of the people the Greeks called Barbaric thought the same thing of the Greeks.
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