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How to create hand-held item? Or: Previewer issue
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nerseus 18+ Age Verified

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: How to create hand-held item? Or: Previewer issue Reply with quote

I created a Bo Peep staff yesterday and wanted it to be held by the female avatar. That is, I want the hand to wrap around the staff. I believe this is done by deriving from Avatar Clothing instead of an Accessory, to give me access to the avatar skeleton.

In a nutshell, here's my issue:
1. Derive from 167 (female baby T)
2. Geometry tab has mesh with ID 2
3. I add mesh with ID = 3 and use my XMF file
4. I remove mesh with ID 2

Issue: When I Save the CFL, mesh ID 2 comes back.

If I try and remove mesh ID 2 first, the previewer leaves a mesh ID 0 there. Browsing to my XMF and saving just changes the mesh ID to 2.

If I try and remove mesh ID 2 first and then add mesh ID 3 (intention of loading an XMF with both the Right Hand AND my staff), the previewer won't let me load my XMF. It acts like it loads, but doesn't load anything (the submesh section remains blank and no texture slots open up on the Material tab)

If I try and remove mesh ID 2 first and then add mesh ID 35 (intention of loading an XMF with just my staff), the previewer won't let me load my XMF. It acts like it loads, but doesn't load anything (the submesh section remains blank and no texture slots open up on the Material tab)



I don't want to replace mesh 2 (torso) - I want to replace mesh ID 3 (right hand). Well ideally, I just want to add my 3D staff as a new mesh ID and not replace ANY body part meshes.

In my ideal world, my XMF would have just my staff. I would derive from 167 (for example) and just remove the Baby T mesh (ID = 2) and put in my own with, say, ID 35.

Even if I had to replace body part 3 (my XMF would have both my staff mesh and the right hand mesh combined), I'd be ok. I've seen this done on product 283410, but can't for the life of me figure out how they got the previewer to remove mesh ID 2.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

-ner

P.S. Using the trick suggested on the pose tutorial by SecondHarvest, I *did* manage to get just mesh ID 3 into the previewer one time, with an XMF that had both the right hand and the Staff. But it crashed the client with an error that suggests the CFL didn't *really* think I'd replaced all the proper body part IDs. As it seemed like a hacky way to get mesh ID 3 in there by itself, it seemed unlikely that the CFL was built correctly.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had that very problem when trying to derive my head product from Avatar product = the previewer won't let me remove the clothing overrides.

So here's my recommendation:

1. derive from product 178 (Male Gloves), or product 309 (Female Gloves). These two products lets you replace the hand meshes directly.
2. if you want just the right hand to hold the staff, have the mesh of the default left hand ready (just export from the weighing file)
3. you should move the fingers to wrap around the staff, and make everything into one mesh before you export it.
4. replace your right hand mesh with the one already holding the staff
5. replace the left hand mesh with the default one you exported, or...


That should do, Wink
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nerseus 18+ Age Verified

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a good short-term solution, twistednanny. Thank you!

If anyone else sees this, I'm still thinking there's GOT to be a way to change that overridden mesh ID. Or simply remove it and put in your own mesh.

While looking at that sword product above, I noticed it derives from the male baggy top (mesh ID 2) yet replaces the right hand (mesh ID 3).

I'd call the behavior in the previewer "buggy." Without knowing the expected behavior, it's hard to call it a bug - but it's certainly unexpected the way it is Smile

The reason I would like this functionality:
I'd like to be able to make hand-held items (for example) that work with both avatars. The current method involves replacing a body part as well as adding my mesh. While that's easy enough to do, it locks you into male or female as the body part meshes don't match.

I'd ideally like to add my own mesh ID (35 for example, much like the Triggered Pose tutorial which *also* works on clothing as a base) and an action. The action would affect the skeleton, such as clenching the hand. This all *almost* works, but I can't get the previewer to Save what it's showing. Argh! See?! It's turning me into a pirate! Help! Smile

-ner
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somehow, I derived from Product 167 as per your question,


What happenned was I first add a mesh, ID3 for the right hand, them I remove mesh ID2 (top tee), and apply changes. The top is still there in the Previewer, while the mesh and its material is gone.


do notice though, that I intentionally put the handheld item as another mesh and I assign an ID so it won't disturb the AV's necessary body parts Razz



I saved, and uploaded the product and it works (pardon me for the materials on the blades as I did it in a hurry to try this out). Product 2109684.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eww, and now I will see whether I can derive a head, from AV body by similar technique Razz
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nerseus 18+ Age Verified

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well dang nabbit... I still can't do what you're doing, twistednanny. No matter what I try, when I derive from 167 and Save, mesh ID 2 comes back. Can I bug you to find out what version of the Previewer you're using and to see if we're doing the exact same steps?

I've tried the only two versions of the previewer I know about, both fresh installed this morning for testing:
372.9-20070514 (from dev download page)
388.2-20071203

My exact step, with just hand replace:
1. File-Derive from 167
2. Geometry tab, Add mesh ID 3
3. Browse to "myRightHand.xmf" - just the right hand mesh
4. Remove mesh ID 2
5. Apply Changes
Note that mesh ID 2 is gone
6. File-Save
Note that mesh ID 2 is back

Tried the same above, but did "Apply Changes" between 3 and 4 (before removing mesh ID 2). Same result - mesh ID 2 comes back.

Me exact step - with sword mesh:
1. File-Derive from 167
2. Geometry tab, Add mesh ID 3
3. Browse to "myRightHand.xmf" - just the right hand mesh
4. Add mesh ID 14
5. Browse to "sword.xmf" - just a simple sword, skinned to rtHand
6. Remove mesh ID 2
7. Apply Changes
Note that mesh ID 2 is gone
8. File-Save
Note that mesh ID 2 is back

Again, tried doing apply changes between steps 5 and 6, but had no effect.

Here's a ZIP of my max file and two XMF files (MyRightHand.xmf and sword.xmf), in case they XMF files actually make a difference:
http://www.nerseus.com/files/swordTest.zip
About 1.7meg - it's basically the female weighting max file plus a simple box mesh to act as my temp sword

-ner
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went back to derive from 167 again, now with your XMF, and I could do it again. Here's the steps:

1. open previewer, and create derived product 167
2. add Mesh ID3, and upload your right hand .xmf
3. click apply changes
4. remove MeshID 2
5. click apply changes
6. add the Mesh for Sword - set ID higher than 12 (caps, gloves, etc. run from 10-12 ~ to my understanding and observation from the example file and material ID).
7. in Material, you will notice Material 00 is gone, and now you're left with M07 and M10 (the ID of your 'sword')
8. put in a material .xrf for the sword, and click apply changes
9. put in my animation skeleton
10. click save

now, the Mesh 02 did not come back in my previewer. Mine was installed from the download page (372 something), and I updated it later on to 388.2-20071203.

BTW are you using Max 8 or 9? I can't open your file in Max7 Razz
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nerseus 18+ Age Verified

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oooo! Thank you twistednanny - your steps work perfectly!

I did a bunch more tests and found out the following:
It appears that switching tabs before pressing apply changes *does* something different.

If I follow your instructions exactly down to step 6 and try and save while still on the geometry tab, you get my issue where mesh #2 comes back.

That is, if I add mesh 14 (sword) and press Apply Changes while still on the Geometry tab and save - you get my issue.

If I add mesh 14 and switch to the Geometry tab and then press Apply Changes and save, it works. I didn't *do* anything on the material tab - just switching there to press apply changes makes a diff.

If I had to guess, there must be some mesh re-evaluation done when switching tabs. I've seen something similar when trying to add multiple meshes to furniture products (which works, but you have to switch tabs for it to work).

-ner
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ner, can you experiment with product 80 and 191 and see how you can remove some body parts in there? I've tried to derive my head product from there Razz
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woo hoo! A combo of the newest previewer (42421) and a new product by Dusty seems to make a LOT more 'accessory' type items possible!

Product ID of Dusty's "empty" derivable: 2191901

When you derive from that, you'll see NO materials, no meshes, no actions. You have an empty clothing item that can interact with the avatar skeleton. It's up to you to add mesh(es), materials and actions.

This makes it possible to have, for example, a sword product that works for both male and female avatars. Or a backpack that doesn't replace the torso, but moves with the avatar skeleton. Or... lots of things Smile

Here are the typical options for making a sword:
1. Derive from a "glove" product. You must choose male or female and you replace the "hand" mesh with your own, along with a sword mesh. Because you're overriding the hand mesh, it only works for male OR female.

2. Derive from an accessory product. You must provide the skeleton and mesh. You are unable to interact with the avatar skeleton - so it's not possible to "grip" the sword handle.

3. NEW - Derive from the new, empty mesh. Add the sword mesh and the action to "grip" the handle. Users will have to type in a trigger word to grip the sword, but it will work on both male and female avatars.

How to make a sword:

Part 1 - 3ds Max
Start with any avatar max file. I prefer the female "weighting pose master"
1. Create a box
2. Move box to be in hand
3. Add material to box (I used slot 10, which had been for "gloves")
4. Position bones of avatar skeleton to "grip" the sword (I only rotated bones from rtHand and down in the chain)
5. Skin the box to bone "rtHand"
NOTE: No keyframe/animation was needed for this simple "grip"

Part 2 - Export animation from 3ds Max
1. Select Female03MasterRoot
2. Export animation (XAF).
3. Wizard step 1 - Choose default avatar skeleton
4. Wizard step 2 - select ONLY rtHand and its children
I click "Uncheck All", then select rtHand and click "Check Children"
5. Wizard step 3:
Start Frame = 0
End Frame = 1
Displacement = 0
Frame Rate = 30

Part 3 - Export mesh from 3ds Max
1. Select the box mesh
2. Export mesh (XMF)
3. Wizard step 1 - Choose default avatar skeleton
Take defaults for everything else

Part 4 - Export material from 3ds Max
1. Select nothing
2. Export material (XRF)

Part 5 - Previewer
1. Derive from 2191901
2. Geometry tab, click add. Use mesh ID 26 for now - but see "Picking a Mesh Channel/ID" below for more info!
3. Browse to your XMF
4. Material tab, select your XRF and your texture
5. Action tab, Add
Action 0 Values:
Trigger = (use your keyword - I used "grip")
# ensembles played = 1

Action 0 / Ensemble 0 Values:
XAF - browse to your XAF
Composition - replace
Frame controls, # loops = 0 (infinite)
Frame controls, Loop start = 0
Frame controls, Loop end = 1
Blend In/Out - 5 (for both)

Special Tab:
Under "Compatable body pattern product ids" put in "191,80" minus the double quotes. Those the male and female avatar IDs so the product will work for either. Note that the product will be under one category - either male or female - when you submit. Just put a note on your product page that the item works for both, but you'll find it under the "____" category (wherever you put it).

Picking a Mesh Channel/ID
The mesh channel you use (part 5 above) is important. For clothing-derived products only one mesh can occupy an ID across ALL worn products. Suppose you make a hat and use ID 30 and someone else makes a necklace and uses ID 30. When the user puts on the hat, all is good. When they put on the necklace, IMVU will automatically remove the necklace. If you make a fancy layered armor suit that uses IDs 30 through 39 and someone tries to put on the necklace, the whole suit of armor comes off. This is GREAT if everyone used the same IDs - a hat is 30, a necklace 31, etc. - that way putting on a 2nd hat would remove the first automatically. That's a good thing. But sometimes you want two or three necklaces on (maybe) and so you need different IDs. Long story short, the ID is important and there should be some kind of standardization. And there is! Check out this thread for the community made list. It's not always followed by a better start than nothing. Mesh Channel Standardization

There you go, save and submit!!

-ner

edit: fixed a "bug" on the #ensembles played. Shoulda been 1, not 0


Last edited by nerseus 18+ Age Verified on Tue May 22, 2012 9:54 am; edited 5 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crikey: Fantastic. But I'd just cracked it using Second Harvests info on posing, which I was about to post here Very Happy

This is great, you've all been really helpful

And Cheers to Dusty ...

Oh and can we have more uses of the words;

dang nabbit, crikey and darn... bringing them back Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the news and report ner, I'll certainly try it out. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I did all that, the pose works but the mesh appears inside her right leg. Why?

I tried several times, each time the mesh appears somewhere else???

Sad
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

when you create the handheld item mesh, first you have to position it in the hand you want it to be held, in the default 'T' position, skin it to the hand bone (rtHand or lfHand), then you can do the poses.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what happens:


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