Change to the way re-rated products and refunds are handled
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Varsha VIP Club Member 18+ Age Verified
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:53 am    Post subject: Change to the way re-rated products and refunds are handled Reply with quote

Effective immediately, we have made a change to the way refunds are handled for re-rated products.

Previously, when a product was re-rated causing it to be taken away from customers and refund to be issued to that customer, only the creator of the final product was affected. His/her profits were deducted from the credit balance as part of the refund process. Creators of products in the derivation chain of that re-rated product got to keep any earned profits for such purchases.

As of now, this is no longer the case. When a product is re-rated and its transactions are reversed, all profits in the derivation chain will be deducted from the corresponding creator's credit balance.

The credits will be deducted from the pended or delivered credit balances depending on where credits from each transaction are at the time of the refund. Re-rated products will be taken out of the inventory of customers as always.

All affected creators will get a notification when refund is processed for a re-rated product.

Updated FAQs for this change are available here.

Thank you.

***Important update here.

This change is live as per this post.***

Further Q&A:

Varsha wrote:
Quote:
... What if IMVU changes the Client and creates a situation where products become permanently broken? Customers get refunded or not? This may be time to set policy and clarification for those situations.


If such a situation were to arise where products are for some reason broken due to IMVU's changes, then we will make sure customers are refunded and creators of such products are not affected.

Thank you.



Varsha wrote:
Cappy wrote:
Varsha, thanks for the heads up.

Can we please have some protection from derivers misrating products?

I propose:
- Our profits are only removed IF they are still in pend.
- Any profits earnt that are no longer in pend are not removed, as this could cause us to have a negative balance.


This is not possible. We will be treating each refund at the transaction level like it is done right now. If a transaction is reversed, the product is removed from the inventory of the buyer(s), full refund is given to the buyer(s) and all profits are deducted from the creators. This will happen no matter where the credits are at the time of refund - pend or delivered.

Thank you.



Varsha wrote:
Sikk wrote:
Is this in part due to the fact that you won't bother to credpend derive fees?


Derivation fees will be pended soon as well. We are working on that change.

Thank you.



Varsha wrote:
PoisonBolty wrote:
Does this apply to all products? I guess, with the way I'm understanding it, say a mesher makes a top... Someone gets a nudey version through PR as GA (not that it happens, right?), when that top gets flagged to be re-rated... Is that going to change that mesher's top to an AP product and issue refunds? I'm hoping I misunderstood or missed something. Some people have too many derivables to babysit every item derived from them. Anticipating an answer. =]


No changes will be made to the mesher's product and it will not be re-rated if the mesh itself meets our policies. The mesher will only lose profits earned from the sale of the final product that has now been re-rated.



Varsha wrote:
Tidy wrote:
Does IMVU have any plans to prevent these type of items from getting into the catalog to to begin with?

Just wondering how we can prevent these items while in PR.

T


Yes. We are working on various ways to prevent mis-rated items being in the catalog. Making it harder for such devs to create and submit such products and profit from them is one such measure. The work is ongoing however and we will continue to implement more ways.

Thank you.



Varsha wrote:
Quote:
I do think that any mesher who ends up with a negative balance due to a refund should be exempted from the possibility of disablement due to negative balance, unless the parent product is in violation itself.


Negative balance accounts are never disabled automatically and handled on a case by case basis. Your note here makes perfect sense and we will definitely be taking this into account if a mesher is ever in danger of having a negative balance due to such re-rating/refund process.

Pended credits and other means to prevent mis-rated items will minimize the chances of such a situation from taking place as well.

Thank you.



Varsha wrote:
xMollyTx wrote:
if an item that has been derived form us and wrongly rated ga, becomes ap and refunds given and credits are to be removed right down the chain,,,will that still happen if the account the item is found in is actually ap anyway? How will we know if said items were paid for with predits....will they be refunded in credits? In fact why even have predits, theres no need for them if IMVU do peer reviews themselves.,,(oh my, people may actually buy credits to buy goods)..which is on topic as if the peer reviews were done properly, and by IMVU, re rating might not be necessary in the first flipping place......definitely no good closing the barn door when the horse has already bolted!


If an item is rated from GA to AP and it is owned by a user who has AP then no refunds are processed for that user and that user keeps the now AP item.

If purchases are paid for in promo credits then the user gets back those promo credits but creators do not pay back the dev tokens they have earned for that sale.

Thank you.



Varsha wrote:
xMollyTx wrote:
does the flag not bring up a webpage with a form on it to fill in??? omg thats scary too....its a halloween joke right?


Yes it does. Clicking the flag icon by accident will not flag the product in question. The user still needs to take further steps.

Thank you.



Varsha wrote:
I have been monitoring your comments, feedback and suggestions.

I understand your concerns, however, we think its fair for no one to keep profits earned from a sale that has been reversed. The change is being kept the way it has been implemented.

We are adding a note linking to this forum thread in the email that is sent to creators when refunds are issued for products derived from theirs.

We know a single process will never be effective against fraud and bad content completely. Therefore we have implemented some measures and will continue to add more to make the catalog and IMVU experience safe and fun for everyone. Peer review improvements are also on the agenda.

I have read your comments about potential situations where a product sold over a long period of time is now re-rated and the mesher is charged with a large refund amount. Though not impossible, in reality, this is quite uncommon and we expect most re-ratings to happen much more quickly.

As I mentioned before, disablement of mesher accounts or any other action against their accounts is also not going to happen if their own product meets our policies.

Thank you.



Varsha wrote:
Quote:
Does IMVU plan to discontinue refunds for UFI purchases?


There are no changes planned to the way refunds are processed for re-rated products at this time.



Varsha wrote:
Some reminders and notes about comments made by some of you related to highly unlikely if not impossible scenarios, the way things work etc.

Also, we will be locking this discussion once the update to the refund process is live.

1) Peer review - Is not being done by bots. Guest users are not bots and they do it to earn credits. Yes, the system relies on the reviewers doing their job correctly and that does not always happen. Hence we have a system of triggering CS review. No, peer review is not perfect and does not guarantee against content against our policies getting into our catalog. We have every intention of improving the quality of our catalog and continue to work toward that goal.

2) Flagged content - Does not take a year to review. CS reviews each and every reported chat, product, homepage etc and takes action if necessary. The process does not take more than a few business days. We continue to make the reporting process and review of such content better and more efficient.

3) Action against meshers - If a product is re-rated, its creator is affected. Meshers of that product is not. We do not take action against meshers just because someone derives from their product and submits content against our policies. Their products or accounts are not disabled or banned as long as they meet our guidelines.

4) Unlikely scenarios - Someone deriving and submitting UFI content just out of spite against meshers is highly unlikely and improbable. I encourage you all not to discuss such scenarios.

5) Re-rating process - Products with a certain keyword or banner being against our policies are often not re-rated automatically. We often reach out to the creator and ask them to change that information instead. Individual situations can differ and are treated accordingly.

6) Refunds for products - There are no changes planned to our current refund policies. We have to be fair to legit users who truly may not have known the content they are purchasing is against our policies versus those who do so intentionally. Preventing such content being submitted and sold is our goal and we continue to work toward it. Community helps in that effort through peer review and flagging. Individual situations can and are handled on a case-by-case basis when there is obvious bad intent on part of the buyers.

7) Gifting of products - If a gifted product is re-rated, the recipient loses the product from their inventory but does not get a refund. I encourage not to discuss things you may or may not have heard from other users as information can be mis-communicated or misunderstood.

Thank you.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

-

I would say this will cause 'Parent Creators' to keep a closer eye on what is being derived from their products and help correct errors, catalog misrated items, etc. PRIOR to the need of refunds... Much better than having it "snowball" before refunds occur.

Really and truly - what other 'fair' way is there to handle this situation?

I saw this refund limit when I first started creating and was wondering when the change would come about. IMVU is very lenient in many areas compared to other Virtual Reality Worlds.

My only question is... What if IMVU changes the Client and creates a situation where products become permanently broken? Customers get refunded or not? This may be time to set policy and clarification for those situations.
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Last edited by LestatDeLioncourt VIP Club Member 18+ Age Verified on Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does IMVU have any plans to prevent these type of items from getting into the catalog to to begin with?

Just wondering how we can prevent these items while in PR.

T
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This fits in to ( PENDED CREDITS SCHEDULE)was easy to understand.
for me anyway.FAQs i did check it out.THANK YOU Varsha,
( time factor) too.my (opinion).


KEEP HAPPY (ALL),HAVE A AWESOME DAY.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The prob with preview is so many do not read the little tags that tell you what each word mean or even pay attention to the products. I get many who say hate just cuz they hate the product not cuz it is a hate product. Maybe should be a mini lesson/tuturial before you're allowed to do peer reviews. They do it when we first sign on to imvu why not in peer review? That way they are forced to learn or even have them review fake products we know are good or violations and see if they can tell difference.

As for the mesher also being hit, idk if that's fair if their product was originally rated properly. I know couple meshers who alter the original. Somehow you got to protect the original mesher. Maybe check their product first and work up from there to see where the misrate started.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tidy wrote:
Does IMVU have any plans to prevent these type of items from getting into the catalog to to begin with?

Just wondering how we can prevent these items while in PR.

T


if they would get somebody to do peer that don't fail items for stuff that don't even pertain to that item, such as aroused nudity for a hairstyle, somebody that really knows what they are doing, maybe this stuff wouldn't make it through peer review as easily
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmmmm, not sure about this one yet...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't disagree with this subject at all, I think it should have always been this way, why should only the developer be the one to take the hit, I can see it if and only if the person deriving it has altered the mesh in some way, such as TxRoseLyon mentioned above. If its in the catalog, somebody IS going to derive it if they can, trace it back to the source, don't deduct only from the person that derived it. Yes they should have known better, but if they hadn't been given the opportunity, there wouldn't have been a problem in the first place
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems fair, why should one person gain rewards from another's unethical work ?

Wow ... is imvu finally getting it's act together ?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This should do a lot to clear out superfluous credits from the system. I never did quite understand why the mesh creators were allowed to keep their credits from sales of mis-rated or ufi products. Well done, IMVU.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this apply to all products? I guess, with the way I'm understanding it, say a mesher makes a top... Someone gets a nudey version through PR as GA (not that it happens, right?), when that top gets flagged to be re-rated... Is that going to change that mesher's top to an AP product and issue refunds? I'm hoping I misunderstood or missed something. Some people have too many derivables to babysit every item derived from them. Anticipating an answer. =]
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PoisonBolty wrote:
Does this apply to all products? I guess, with the way I'm understanding it, say a mesher makes a top... Someone gets a nudey version through PR as GA (not that it happens, right?), when that top gets flagged to be re-rated... Is that going to change that mesher's top to an AP product and issue refunds? I'm hoping I misunderstood or missed something. Some people have too many derivables to babysit every item derived from them. Anticipating an answer. =]


I'm wondering on this too.....
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PoisonBolty wrote:
Does this apply to all products? I guess, with the way I'm understanding it, say a mesher makes a top... Someone gets a nudey version through PR as GA (not that it happens, right?), when that top gets flagged to be re-rated... Is that going to change that mesher's top to an AP product and issue refunds? I'm hoping I misunderstood or missed something. Some people have too many derivables to babysit every item derived from them. Anticipating an answer. =]


No, it doesn't cause the mesh to be re-rated. It just backs out all those sales which the mesher has collected due to a misrated item.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whilst I agree that every CC in the Derivation Chain should suffer a "Financial Hit" when a Product in the Chain Gets Re-rated I would like to see IMVU go one stop further and Re-Rate every Item Below the Product in the Chain that triggered the Refunds that does not Conform to the TOS, VGP or MCG.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1 time i derived from a derivable pose. then imvu decides that it was ufi smh which it wasnt. but because of that, i was disabled and had to pay back over 400 people. till this day the person who made the original mesh still has it in there catalog, while i suffered the consequence for it. so in a way i think its a good thing in certain cases......

but like Tidy said "Does IMVU have any plans to prevent these type of items from getting into the catalog to to begin with?"
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